I agree with this, I think those two civs (the KoM ones) are the worst scam made by the devs, many have stopped using them due to the problems already mentioned here. I haven’t used Italia for almost two years because the truth is it’s too frustrating to play with, because of how weak the CIV is. What is most outrageous is that nothing is done.
2 Likes
Maybe the devs decided Malta and Italy should not be pay-to-win civs, so they made them weak.
Anyway, with my trials, now I’m convinced that Papal Bombard with 4 ROF instead of 7 ROF makes them a stronger civ, and makes them playable and fun, without making them unbalanced.
However, now I note that 4ROF Papal Bombards may be a little OP, because they delete even Light Cavalry, and I almost have not made Spindardas and Galilean Mortars. But they are not particularly strong unique improvements, right?
In other respects, which sould be the right translation of Galilean Mortar to Spanish? In Spanish they are “Mortero de Galilea”, which means “Mortar from Galilee, Israel”, which doesn’t have the original meaning; that is, “Galileo Galilei-influenced Mortar”. “Mortero de Galileo” o “Mortero Galileano” would be better translations.
3 Likes
Yes that’s right. Only you can’t build these guns. You can either order them from the deck, or cut off your economy by removing your only factory from the game. So everything is fine.
They overdid it too much)))
2 Likes
yall literally like mind wiped the italy of last year didnt you, or maybe only play treaty. weak civ its entire time my butt.
Malta during bow enjoyer time was pretty funny too, albeit id like to toot my own horn and say i was rushing in release july to solid effect.
These civs need a rework but if you dont know why they became op before, you’re likely to do it again. Both these civs have always been weak in treaty but like haude being bad at teams, sometimes thats just how it is. Supremacy however, both these civs need moreso a rework due to feeling bad than always being bad. malta is great on no top maps or water (of which 0 of that combo exists on queue) and great vs some civs. Italy does fine in a good players hands but by god is it boring to play them as corner camping civ/vs it. that doesnt mean we need to just boost stats, but it means we need to solve a more tricky problem of how to ensure they feel distinct but not cancer to play into. no one likes fixed guns but malta players for example, and depots are hit or miss
2 Likes
It wae good with exactly one build which is no longer useable at all- as in genuinely impossible. Its the worst civ in sup and treaty currently by every metric I’m aware of. Just because breeze was able to make it cancerous with one cheese doesnt justify the civ being useless forever now. It was exclusively op because of free tower spam, which cannot be done, so any of the above listed buffs won’t break the civ. No one wants 2023 italy back, nor has anything discussed here implied that.
2 Likes
Before fort bug abuseit was when lombards was worth 1xp so 6 in base TPs wait 7 cause church was insane when the other shipments were cheaper and faster. That was the OG lame
Im all for buffing italy tho but its important to point out pitfalls of the past imho. Like super loaded lombard cards and xp trickles
3 Likes
I 100% agree here, free defensive buildings and magic res trickles are not healthy for the game at all. Italy was implemented in such a convoluted way and with patches so infrequent I wonder if it will ever be in a good spot.
2 Likes
Fighting with Pavisers before the industrial age is never OP. How to use a musketeer with 155 HP that costs 2 pop. It’s just funny to listen to. It’s also funny to hear that endless shipments of towers can stop someone. Of course, we do not have anti building units in any nation. Grenadiers, for example, who are also good against crossbowmen. I mean that the whole of Malta is countered by the grenadiers. This could never have been op.
Not to mention, at ages 3-5, Malta can’t do anything with samurai.
How was this once OP. I’ve been playing Malta since release.
List of Malta counter to samurai
Crossbow
Fire thrower
Cassador
Longbows
Sentinels
Falconet/field guns
Horse gun
Heavy cannons
How many more do you want?
5 Likes
as Drive2024 mentioned, samuari or infantry in general are not malta’s problem. Sentinels are also a weird unit with most people agreeing its got some powerspikes but theyd rather a more consistent stat’d musk and scaling over current version. the “155” hp musk is not the cornerstone of the bowpike rush but for defensive boomy plays.
As for italy, it was the power of instantly building them. 3-4 archs spamming fortified outposts was insufferable and for many non mortar civs just impossible. same with fort. Pavs were never much an issue and infact got nerfed harder for sup mode when devs listened to the wants of treaty players to have xbows and made them imp/guard versions.
Malta’s OP ness was 1- before the nerf to light infantry damage vs cav and was a huge factor why it came about and 2- when steelbolts gave more range and much more seige damage. Malta fixed guns also had more range and could kill their counters cost effectively. This mean malta could rus# ## contain (cheaper healing rax, slightly better xbow, all great archaic cards early age up) and then spam just xbow all game or put down a fixed gun and just win. there were many matches of malta players just making fixed guns infact. Also walls and adv fortification were way cheaper/bs so malta players could drag games on into the imperial age easily. Malta was always poor at treaty i believe, but in supremacy was just a nightmare to face.Its been gutted hard since and I’m for some rework to malta but the aoe3 playerbase has short memory so I like to be socrates’s gadfly on these forums
Also no grenadiers do not counter malta like xbow+the most basic of micro. or order huss. and anti unit buildings for either nation? royal guard mortar? halbs? pikes? steelbolts? fixed guns w/ 60 range vs buildings?hospitaliers? normal artillery??? AND royal guard culvs to win artillery duels?? Other than sentinels which has poor seige for their pop this is hardly a weakness of the civs.
the samuari one man… man…
3 Likes
Ding ding ding. Basically all the issues italy created were fringe builds related to Architects and not actually on the unit side or even economic side.
For a supposedly economic civ it’s economy is just bad. For a civ that was historically reliant on mercs it has bad access to mercs and it’s military is basically beyond certain papal units a joke and the papal units are a joke because they can neither be massed nor accessed competently.
4 Likes
I have some suggestions on how to rework Italy, or some aspects of the civ:
Lombards are a nice concept, but they are too complicated to use effectively, and basically rely only on the resources shipping through the HC.
So I would propose the following rework:
- Coversion speed changed: the first lombard build exchange resources at 1.5 res/s. Every other lombard built increase the speed by +1.5-0.25*n° Lombards.
Example: with 250 food invested, you get 1.5 coins and 1.5 wood with 1 lombard, 2.75r/s with 2, 3.75r/s with 3, 4.5r/s with 4, and 5r/s with 5, so the maximum conversion speed is the same. - Conversion value: with 1 lombard you exchange resources at 1:1 ratio, so 1f=1w=1c. Each additional lombard, generates a 5% additional resources. Food doesn’t have a higher value anymore.
Example: if I invest 250 coins, I get 250 food/wood with 1 lombard, with 2 I’ll get 12.5r extra resources, with 3 25r, with 4 37.5r, and with 5 50r, always evenly split between the 2 resources. - HC Deposit Cards: Luccan and Sienese cards removed, the other nerfed to:
Monte di pietà → 500 gold
Genoese F. → 850 gold
Florentine F. → 1600 gold - Building time by architects increased to 120 secs. Cost increased to 200 wood and 200 gold.
- **Papacy
- Usury: all investments gives back +10% resources (so the total resources gained amounts to +35% of the investment).
- Mercs and outlaw: Now, besides the ones given by the map/politicians, you can also train at the lombards the units from the latest company shipped, so you can get:
Broken lance C. → stradiots
Croatian C. → crabats
Maltese C. → inquisitors
Albanian C. → bosniaks
Black C. → black riders
German C. → jaegers
Papal C. → swiss pikemen
French C. → fusiliers
Savoyard C. → armored pistoleer
The unit is unlocked as soon as the shipment arrive. A new company shipment override the precedent unit available with the new one.
Papal units should work like native units that are unique to the Italians. They don’t take population, but they are limited in the number that you can have.
- The units now have their shipment queue of their own, but they keep the same batches as now. Shipping time adjusted to compensate.
- You can have a maximum of 2 papal shipment at the time with 1 basilica. The second basilica and third basilica extend the maximum number by +1, for a total of 4 shipment at the time.
- Papal units from the HC and Politicians can allow you to overpop their limit.
Other small adjustments that I would like to see, in no particular order:
- Smother animations for pavisier, especially in order to changes stances faster.
- Papal Guards: base speed buffed from 4.25 to 4.5, in order to distinguish them more from halbs.
- Roman Tactics now affect papal guard too.
- Venetian arsenal: unlock advanced arsenal techs when you reach age 3, so you don’t have to always have milanese arsenal too.
- Logistician II: with Advanced Politicians, it give 2 free technologies instead of 2 arsenal wagons or it unlock advanced arsenal technologies or it ship a military wagon instead of another arsenal wagon.
- Papacy technology at the church increasing the build limit of lombards too by +1.
- Heavy Paveses affecting all archaic units.
- A age 4 card that give a small speed buff to artillery to compensate for the slow papal bombard, and that maybe also makes them pack/unpack faster.
1 Like
I also noticed recently that Italy cannot research Incendiary Grenades without shipping the launchers card, even though they have grenadiers by default!
10 Likes
Try it. You’ll see. True, I did not watch Japan. Perhaps their stats have been changed since the release of KoM. But at the release of KoM, no one could counter the samurai from Malta, except perhaps the cassadors.
Yes, you understood correctly. The problem with Malta and Italy is not the design, but the fact that they are simply unfinished.
do you mean:
1- that malta was incapable of dealing with samurai from japan or
2- that the “Maltese samurai” aka hospitaliers beat japan im confused by your speech
1 Like
I mean the Hospitallers losses 8 to 1 to the Samurais. Fire throwers are very few in number, and they simply do not have time to kill the 6.19 speed of samurai. The crossbowman does not have the health, damage, or multiplier to fight effectively. Sentinels are very few in number too, although they are clearly more effective than fire throwers LOL. But again. This is not enough. So it remains. If you didn’t take Portuguese Tongue against Japan, you’re screwed.
Again, I repeat, I played in Malta 1.5-2 years ago. Perhaps the samurai have already been changed 10 times in patches.
The fundamental problem with both CoM civilizations is two important things. Their economy is shit because of this card:
That is, they don’t play on maps without trade routes.
And secondly (Malta), in order to move the fb you need to delete your building (lose resources LOL). And if Russia deletes only 250w blockhouses, then Malta has to remove an entire fort hahahaha. -1000 resources per relocation. Disgusting design
On nautical maps, both nations have an infinite tree, and fixed guns prevent monitors from working. OK. I don’t mind. But is it really impossible to give these nations something for the land?
what are u kidding? hospitaller lose to samurai 8 to 1? you mean 8 hospitaller lose to 1 samurai?
Next time dont accidently hit the delete button then
1 Like
malta crossbow has the higherst dps, highest health among light infantry. especially late game with 50% percent hp buff. dont use 1 crossbow to fight 1 samurai without hit and run, then you lose. malta crossbows are super cheap. After a card they have 2x multi instead of 1.25, so you are wrong on that too. so all your arguments are wrong.
30 vs 30
It’s a shame to say such a thing, but even a rodelero is more useful vs samurai.
It’s also in the treaty. With 25 shipments.
