Let's talk CHINA

Yes if all vills never have market upgrades but as the game goes on you will upgrade your eco and the vill equivalent of those wonders will drop. So that means the wonders are less impactful to the whole eco after you upgrade the vills. Especially you only make one wonder each age. By age 4 you probably have around 12 vills of working power from wonder (summer palace + tower + confusian academy). No where near original post saying 20+ vills by age 3. Also China is not a boomer civ, no eco bonuses for booming. There are many booming civs there like Japan, Sweden brits Hausa Dutch and inca, native civs all has fertility dance, all those civs get vills way faster than China and/or they have a lot of res generating buildings.

yes it gets less impactful in the later game but as with most china game, the later game doesn’t come. heck in a normal ff game, china doesn’t even get market techs so the value analysis still holds.

a similar analysis is true for the german consulate trickles, which also decreases is value overtime but in the sub 20 mins game where supreamacy games are usually held, its value is still pretty good

other civs can get more vils but they don’t have as good of unit shipments, china’s unique combo makes it strong. you can hv repeated unit shipments backed up with eco and unit spam

its not always too strong, before the changes it was pretty average. some of the recent changes, especially the goat has kinda pushed it over the edge

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China laming is FREE ELO. End of story, they need more than a tweak, they were under the radar S tier before the unnecessary buff. Garja is a respected veteran who attests they’ve been S tier all along.
Villages shouldn’t be able to garrison IMO,
Unit shipments reduced
Goat reduced.
250w war academy
They would still be A tier after those nerfs.


I suggest that before any civilization balance suggestions, it is best to say your game id and your elo score, so that everyone can better analyze whether it is this civilization op or you simply can’t play. Otherwise, everyone will think you’re just a rant。

By the way, I don’t think anyone with an elo score below 1800 is qualified to suggest balance casually, so there will only be jokes like Inca in the end.


Are you joking about the 250w war Academy? Then why don’t I add 50g to build a Castle, produce Mongolian army, and kill your Villager?


The game balance should fall on the high end of where the bulk of the players are. Balance based on the top tier players is useless. They will maximize whatever changes are made and overcome them

1200 to 1600 is where the bulk of the action is and the players are skilled enough to sift the good from the bad pretty efficiently.


It’s funny how mass psychology rules these debates on civ strength. It’s like people don’t know what to think unless there is a general movement in that direction. We all know it’s impossible to balance this game for the most part that’s why I’ve always said just to saw off the rough edges.

All of the Asian civs have been over strength for over a decade. For the most part I believe the debate died because after 17 years of futility everyone who had fought to change it has either died or gave up hitting their head against the wall long ago. It’s just accepted that it’s the way it’s going to be.

Japan and china need some work. India I can live with I suppose but the universal defense cry of the Indian fanboys of “yeah but these op units make me need to build an extra house” does wear a bit thin in moments of frustration.

The euro civs are the stepchildren of the original marriage.


Villagers/huntables/herdables from villages/TC, cheaper and faster vills while ally with russians (that give a blochouse/fort/factory).
Also their train time card boost villagers too.

I think that they have potential to do it


From the 1.03 version of the Asian Dynasty in 2009 to the time before aoe3de was released, only the Japanese and Indians were the strongest in Asia. The data and gameplay of the Chinese were far less abundant than these two. , The three most ops in version 1.03 are always the Iroquois, Indians, and Ottomans. The Japanese can also rank fourth according to his n bugs. What about China? The lack of means to deal with cavalry led to ff being defeated by a large number of cavalry regiments without success. de has changed this, adding Mongol armies so that they can effectively deal with cavalry. As for why the Chinese are so op now, there are two reasons why the mutton at the start of the game was changed from 60 food to 120 food in the February patch, which greatly accelerated the speed of the previous era. 2. All Asian civilizations can build wonders without queuing, and all villagers can build them together. This also speeds up the epoch time of 10s. These changes make the Chinese people can do ff from 7:30 seconds to 6:40 seconds. There are still a lot of military cards that can be issued continuously. At this stage, you don’t even need to produce troops. This is the reason why the Chinese are currently op.


Yeah but no where near boomer civs like brits Japan or dutch etc…the sheep bonus is pretty bad…no one will spend food to train sheep in an actual game. The consulate is just a consulate bonus, all Asian civs have consulate bonuses to choose from. The card which accelerates production is not super useful either. Think about Aztecs or Inca, ship 5 priests or 8 vills in age 3 and put them on fertility dance, it is several times faster production than China. Whereas the same one age 3 card for China only gives 20% faster training.

I am assuming it is a bug, because I checked the French consulate horse artillery, it does NOT suffer from that.


I love your changdao reference. I think a fully leveled up, exalted changdao should be…

300HP, 35 damage, times 2 against cavalry, times 1.5 against infantry (because there’s no way a musketeer could defend against that) and then a speed nerf of to 4.5, because they’re in full armor and carry massive swords. I still oppose the halberdiers being 4.25 speed. That’s historically inaccurate lol. Same with the pikemen but I know why the pikemen are fast, despite being like, among the most unwieldy of infantry.

I did an old post last summer about how I would love to see a Chinese arsenal added into the Confucian academy and it would give like 6 unique techs that mirror some European ones.

I would also love for China to see a cheap “bombard” added. It could cost 4 pop, have only like 250 HP, pushed like those Japanese flaming arrows, but it can have like 100 damage, times 3 against infantry, times 2 against buildings. I know that Yuan Chonghuan used Chinese bombards to effectively defeat the Manchus in a major battle, so like, the Chinese should have a bombard. So should the Indians. I mean the Mughals. They famously built massive, Ottoman-esque cannons. I guess the only way to make that work is with the great bombards from the consulate.

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edit: the stats on those are wrong as well, the bug has been reported

I agree.Only>1700 elo person can give advice.Strange suggestion is not conducive to the development of the game.Winning probability is Reference basis.Obviously,China only T1-T2

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to add on to this as well, the increased unit selection means you can easily control like 90 units now, meaning china’s massive armies are much more easy to micro, which was a disadvantage before.

The same can be said for russia, i dont think its a coincidence that these two civs, which were considered sort of weak before are becoming a lot harder for people to deal with

before you may need like 3-4 control groups to micro china’s unit spam but now it can be like 2

another small but important change is the auto formation for muskets, which now automatically stand infront of skirms and archers, meaning cav cant charge china’s mass as easily with the consulate muskets


I don’t consider the meteor hammer a relative of the hussar, it’s too unique for that. If anything the stupid iron flail is closer to a hussar, since they aren’t even half as good as a cuirassier lol.

I guess the real thing with me is and I am going to state this as like a thesis “a shift towards more historical accuracy while maintaining balance” is what I, me, would like to see. With that in mind, the Indians would need a huge overhaul too. The camel cavalry they have is too fast, like historically inaccurately too fast. And I must be clear, I did not get into this game for fun of video games, I got into it because I’m a historian and linguist and I adore that I can play as the Qing dynasty or hear Turkish words that I haven’t actually said to people for a decade because there’s no one left in my life to speak it to lol.

Like I still love the Chinese arquebusier and his little Ming dynasty style uniform, which is super accurate…but I’d rather see a Qing bannerman uniform, since I just prefer their outfits more.

Though, to your point about the meteor hammer’s armor, you ever play as China and get the natives that boost defense, the Sudanese (+10% melee) and the Jagiellon (+10% ranged) either one of them turns the meteor hammer into a hussar. That extra little defense really offsets the fact that they have only have 532HP when fully leveled up and have all their cards. Hussars to me, especially late game, are used more as damage sponges. I’m more cautious with my valuable meteor hammers.

Then you are at the wrong place my dude. Like the original devs stated, its about having a fun gameplay experience, not about having a historically accurate simulation. And that is exactly how it should be. Its historically themed, but should never go simulation, there are alternatives for you if you prefer that, dont change an existing game into it.


If this game didn’t have cultural aspects and linguistic traditions, I would not have been drawn to it, and the 1,800 hours I’ve spent on this version alone says I am in a fine place. If this game was 100% fictional like Starcraft and had ALL the same things, just different alien appearances and Sims-like speech, I wouldn’t have been attracted to it.

But the argument for balance is also not a fulfilled goal at all. My biggest complaint against “balance” is why do the Europeans and Africans ONLY get the final massive HP and attack boost to mercenaries. In my opinion, every civ should have access to that, either via a card or something. That’s the point of mercenaries, to bring outside help in. My example is the fully leveled up Dutch Fusilier, who has about 525HP, 115 ranged attack, 80 siege, and 70 melee, but a normal Fusilier with no upgrades has only like…300HP, 70 ranged, 60 siege, and like 35 melee. That is my NUMBER 1 complaint, everyone should have access to that upgrade.

I’d drop my wish for a Chinese and Indian arsenal if they gained access to the final upgrade for mercenaries. I think the Native Americans should get true mercenaries as well.


Its an age up bonus, atleast for Europeans, I barely play Africans. Just like how the Japanese can retrain shoguns in the shogunate or how the Indians have a building which increases gathering rates.

Mercenaries already are barely used and are a unit type mostly meant for European civs. Most supremacy games doesnt even see an age V and in treaty only a few civs go mercenaries, mainly the ones who have high coin or card bonus. Japan argueably doesnt need the upgrade as their units are already above good and I really dont think Indians and Chinese would suddenly mass use them.

Native Americans would never make mercenaries seeing their poor coin gathering rates. Also regarding your wish for historical accuracy Lakota and Iroqouis wouldnt use them as what would they pay them with? And most European mercenaries didnt go to the new world let alone fight for native Americans. Sure same can be said for Asia, but as I have said before the game is not a simulation, so yes the natives could get them, but not if you keep up the argument for historical accuracy.

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India has always been stealth OP, even from before the times of DE.