Lithuanians - balance suggestions

I think it is time to call it (after 4 month of experience), that lithuanians are weak, therefore need buffs. They’re being listed as a cavalry and monk civilization (and I think we can say that they’re intended to be a “trash” civilization aswell), however they don’t really have anything very good going on for them (other civilizations’ cavalry and monk bonuses are better), neither really excel in late game trash fights and they have a mediocore economy with one dark age economy bonus.

The reasons for the above statements:
-Only one bonus affecting monks: +20% monastery work rate. Not really a bonus which makes them a monk civilization (for example spanish, burmese or aztec bonuses are much more heavier and effective), to have decent monks or monastery, they need further bonuses for monks
-One cavalry bonus (the quantity is not a problem, but rather the bonus itself): +1 attack for each relic collected. The reason why this bonus is bad: While other cavalry civilizations get access to their bonuses instantly, for lithuanian players to achieve this bonus, should make heavy gold investments into monks (also should build a monastery), and then manage to get the relics, which is another huge issue if the other player is aware and denying you from getting them. Of course if you manange to get 4 relics, that’s a huge deal, but remember, you made heavy investments, and it is also true that other civilizations got bonuses for free (let’s say those are comparable for lithuanians getting 1,5 relic).
-Avarage in trash fights. While they have +10% speed on their spearmen and skirmishers, their halberdiers are far for fully upgraded (missing 1 melee and pierce armor), and their skirmishers might be good, but 1 pierce armor for 800 food and 200 gold is very expensive. There are many much more better trash civilizations (for example malay, persians, magyars, byzantines, aztecs, etc).

How can these problems be fixed:
-Give them more monk bonuses
-Give them further bonuses helping them get the relics
-Buff their trash units and/or decrease the cost of tower shields

My suggestions:
-Fervor and sanctity free
-Have access to plate mail armor
-Tower shields cost modified to 400 food 250 gold

Why are these suggestions helping:
-Free fervor and sanctity makes their caslte age monks much better, you can compare them to any other monk civilizations’. It also greatly helps on collecting relics, their monks will be +15% faster (which is huge!), and will be much harder to kill, lithuanian monks will be more likely to win a 1v1 fight, in other words they’ll more likely convert the enemy unit before the enemy kills him.
-Plate mail armor makes their halbadiers fully upgraded (even having +1 pierce armor with tower shields), they’ll become competitive in trash fights
-Tower shield is currently too expensive, very hard to get (especially that 800 food is hard to save), this change will make the technology actually reasonable to research in non-extreme situations.

I’ll be happy to read any contructive feedback, aswell other suggestions, convince me!


I also support the idea about giving plate mail to the infantry (because without that, the unique tech is worst than the normal blacksmith tech with the spearman line).
Regarding cost, I think it should be reduced or, maintaining the actual cost, give +1/+1 like the italian Paves shield.
Free Fervor is a nice touch taking into account the relics. Like the teuton bonus of Herbal medicine + garrison bonus.
Regarding the team bonus. I think it should be increased because the monastery technologies last between 50 and 60 seconds. Compare that with the malian bonus of +80% on the university.

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Yes, it would be maybe better if tower shield gave +1 melee armor aswell, but first I’d only lower its cost and give lithuanians the plate mail armor, if they need improvements, sure let them benefit from it.
Note that team bonus also affect monk creation time, so I’m pretty against increasing it. I think it is good right now how it is.

Anyways, thanks for your feedback!

I don’t agree completely, and that’s the reasons.

  • The lack of plate armor is for balance, a normal halbs take 5 damage from a FU ES (bonus+upgrades), if you give them plate+UT it would take only 4, and being also faster would mean that they would dominate in trash wars (it’s the same reason why malians doesn’t have halbs). A solution could be that they receive plate, but then only the ES would be affected by their UT (halbs would still be faster, and that means forcing more engagements with enemies cavalry).
  • Giving both fervor and sanctity would be a little too much, consider that they already have the potential to be the first to have monks in the field (and to upgrade them first) , maybe they could buff the bonus to 25/30%, that way they are a bit faster (consider that it’s also a team bonus, immagine lituanians+burmese/aztec)
  • I agree that the tower shield UT could be reduced, 800f is too much for just 1PA considering that they don’t cover all plate armor, it could be like 400f and 200g.

As for their +1attack per relics I agree that it’s not like an frank or huns bonus, but even if you get only 1 it’s more attack on top of you FU knights/paladins, it’s actually insane.
Plus, I think this bonus was purposely made by the devs to incourage player to pay more attention to relics.

Currently the lithuanian halbadiers have 1 less pierce armor than the FU ones, so they take +1 damage from FU ES, which is defiitely a weakness in trash fights. This should be adressed. I don’t think they would be broken with only +1 pierce armor and +10% movement speed, just compare it to the malay forced levy two handed swordsman.

Well the team bonus and the +150 food definitely helps them, but I wouldn’t say that they’re the first ones to have monks in the field. There are many civs that have the economy or the bonuses to make a faster castle age than lithuanians, for example persians, malay, mongols, etc… . And if they advance faster, they’ll definitely go for the relics aswell knowing that their enemy is a lithuanian player. I think free fervor+sanctity is okay.

I know, I used to play lithuanians a lot myself, lot more than other civs. But considering that you don’t get the bonus instantly in casle age, and it requiers a monastery to build and a monk to train, it is definitely worse than the other knight bonuses. Giving them fervor and sactity for free to help them achieve this bonus would help alot, and lithuanians could compete with other cavalry civs like franks or persians (who have basicly free bloodlines, persians +2 attack versus archers plus insane eco)

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Force levy is a different bonus, as for the halbs, consider them in a fight against other trash, they still counter hussars, they take only +1 damage from other halbs/ES, and they can decide when egage and when not. If you give them +5 PA they became ES killers, since they can’t run away/micro them (they have minimum range) and they have less time to hit them before they colse the distance.
As for the monastery that’s why to me it’s more important to buff their bonuses, so even if they have better monks, it doesn’t matter for relics grabs if other civs hit CA first. I my mind instead even if you hit CA later you can catch up with faster producing monks.

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Ok I was going to write an essay to explain why Lith aren’t weak imo but apparently if this is to be trusted ( complaints about Tower shield and the Leitis being just a weird Boyar rip-off have been adressed.

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Hmmm. I think it can be trusted as it is from the official aoe page. I didn’t think that Leitis was weak, don’t know if that leitis change was necessary. Tower shield change seems interesting, Lithuanians will porbably become a considerable trash war civilization now. I still don’t like that it will still be very hard to collect relics and “activate” their cavalry bonus. All in all, lithuanians will be a good but really hard to play civilization if these changes will happen.

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Here you go sir, the Lithuanians are balanced in my mod.

I thought about the same and gave then free fervor

I’ve already subscribed :slight_smile:

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The Leitis really got more than what was asked for, full 30 gold discount without a single change to their impressive offensive stats. Along with stirrups affecting knight line (insane) and Boyar getting more pierce, this update has been quite a rollercoaster ride


Cavalry is back on the menu, boys.

The thing I worry about is Teutons Paladins now. Won’t they be kinda op?


Well, they’ll be still slow, so it will be hard to force a fight, and harder to escape from halberdiers. I only worry about teutonic paladins taking the place of teutonic knights, and that there won’t be any advantages going TKs over paladins.


Bulgarians lost the Paladin, so Stirrup Cavaliers will not be such a big deal, and now they should go for Konniks more often, sine Paladins were always better anyway, and they just had to decide between Paladin and Elite Konnik, to which no one picked Elite Konnik.

I like the Leitis change a lot. They will be easier to spam, which is needed, because you never saw them played anyway, and Lithuanians were in a very bad spot, with Portuguese, on the lower winrates.

There already ins’t, paladin is just a better unit.
+2 Melee Armour Paladins might actually make them the best Paladins in the game, and in my opinion, in an unnecessary change.

What I like about the bulgarian change is that now it kinda forces the bulgarian player more to build a castle and research that castle age technology right away in castle age. Though they could be given a bonus which helps this for example free stone mining or something like this (I think the town center discount is not enough).

I also think it was unnecesary, but overall a good change. Teutons will now actually have more options to go with, they always lacked options (I mean you could have gone with cavalry before, but then why don’t pick other cavalry civilizations?). I think that now teutons will actually be a decent civ. Regarding TKs, that speed buff is definitely handy, but to make them have an advantage over paladins, I’d give them a big bonus damage versus buildings, to make them much more threatening, and so for TKs it will be easier to force a fight.

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it will still be a big deal in 1v1 considering how cheap stirrups is for its cost, also Konniks was the way for Bulgarians most games, since paladins cost more both to produce and upgrade

It’s just +1

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As a civilization bonus, Barracks and Stable units now receive a +1 melee armor bonus in the Castle and Imperial Age.

It implies they get
+1 in Castle and an additional +1 in Imperial.

Wait isn’t it +2? I thought aswell. I’m not sure teutons will be that good then.

Well after reading the patchnotes, both could be possible.

usually its accompanied by “(+2 in total)” so I don’t know, guess we’ll see when the update comes. +2 might be too good in cavalry vs cavalry for completely free

building 4 TCs from starting stone is pretty strong, stone mining will just encourage the cancerous krepost spam