Mostly it feels like the civ is too swingy with the relic bonus imo
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I don’t know if it is balance if a unit can deal 18 to 22 attack depending on the map and however the game goes. It’s too random and doesn’t feel balanced.
How they are better than example Frankish paladin, they don’t invalidate any counter, they still need 3 hist to kill arbalest lol
Because +4 relic Lith paladin is one of the strongest melee units in the game with very few weaknesses.
They only just barely get beaten by elite boyars, while having more speed and HP compared to the elite boyar.
While the boyar has to sacrifice HP and speed for its high armour, the Lith paladin is just better in general and will generally perform better than the boyar in most situations.
That seems a little too strong to me.
No High PA option with Mobility
That’s going to be their new buffed light cav that’s coming in a few days.
and cavaliers just die faster to arbalest
That’s sort of the point. You shouldn’t be making armies of just 1 unit. You should be forced to diversify more. Lith have great skrims and light cav, so archers shouldn’t be an issue. Light cav and skirms have their own weaknesses though, which is when you bring back in heavy cavalry.
I think that sounds more balanced than having 1 unit that can be very strong in a wide range of situations.
thats why Bulgarians and Malians aren’t as picked like even ordinary paladin civs.
Again, that’s sort of the point.
Having a civ that has a lot of great and vaired options.
Where you don’t default to making paladins because it’s simply the best option, but still having better heavy cavalry than most civs if you need to use them.
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Because you don’t know if is balanced but you don’t have the knowledge to talk about how is"OP" without any proof is just pointless, Lithuanian Paladin with 22 attack still need 4 hits to kill halbs, 3 for arbalest, barely wining vs heavy camel, etc…
Also wtf with Boyar, relaize how much powerful is the melee armor than attack, especially when Boyars are quick trained and the elite upgrade is just a jump to 8 melee in seconds, enough to stop most melee attacks early, Boyars beat Vietnamese and Malay Battle elephants, should we just nerf Boyar then?.
TGs man, I’m talking about TGs, you usually go for one unit because teammates cover weaknesses each other. and lol, the whole point of the relic bonus is to give advantage vs other cav, Khmer Elephants have guaranteed 21 attack, they are stronger, faster upgraded and have trample damage, shpuld we nerf that then? On top of that I could just say the same about Khmer elephants when Khmer were OP, but they are counterable with Halbs and Onagers no? then WHy 2k players complained that Khmer were too strong then??
I think people just want Lith paladins lost due to how much the overrated Frankish apaldin is loved to the death where is nerfed people just cry lol, also to add, Liths have weaker eco and boom. and getting relics isn’t easy task, like how mangudai is hard to get OP in post Imp, if you let Lith get all relics, is your problem, not the civ, period.
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Sorry if I misunderstand what you’re saying, the grammar in your post is a bit poor.
Because you don’t know if is balanced but you don’t have the knowledge to talk about how is"OP" without any proof is just pointless, Lithuanian Paladin with 22 attack still need 4 hits to kill halbs, 3 for arbalest, barely wining vs heavy camel, etc…
Lithuanian paladins with +4 relics kills camels in 2 less hits that a regular FU paladin, kill halbadiers in 3 hits if they don’t have plate mail armour, kill arbalests without ring armour in 2 hits, pikemen in 3 hits (regular paladin is 4) kill FU champions in 4 hits (regular paladin is 5).
In situations that involve the above listed units that deal bonus damage to paladins, the +4 relic Lith paladin is much stronger than the Teuton or Frank bonus, since it kills the unit before it has the chance to deal more damage. Many camel civs don’t have access to good halbs, so this would make them countering Lith much harder.
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 attack still need 4 hits to kill halbs, 3 for arbalest, barely wining vs heavy camel, etc…
Expanding on this, I feel like this can be a very biased way to represent damage.
While it’s true that it take +4 relic Lith paladin the same hits to kill halbs and arbs as a normal FU paladin, the Lith paladin leaves them with 3HP for the halb and 2HP for the arb.
This is compared to 15HP for the halb and 10HP for the arb for regular paladin.
To imply that this doesn’t have a strong impact on the game is a bit disingenuous, I think .
Also wtf with Boyar, relaize how much powerful is the melee armor than attack, especially when Boyars are quick trained and the elite upgrade is just a jump to 8 melee in seconds, enough to stop most melee attacks early, Boyars beat Vietnamese and Malay Battle elephants, should we just nerf Boyar then?.
You’ve missed the point of my argument completely. I will reiterate my point here, but I encourage you to reread what you’ve replied to. My point was that the boyar is a very specialised melee unit, that performs worse than paladins when it comes to dealing with pierce damaging units like archers, scorpions and defenses. The Lith paladin has a similar melee performance to the boyar in the sense that it can beat most melee units in the game, but has less pronounced weaknesses than the boyar, due to it’s higher HP, speed and better performance vs camels. I brought up the boyar as a cavalry example to help illustrate that a unit that is very strong in one instance, should typically have a strong weakness in another area. This is why I don’t take issue with the leitis, because its high damage output is contrasted with its low HP and weak pierce armour.
lol, the whole point of the relic bonus is to give advantage vs other cav
A reduced bonus would still give you an adventage over enemy cavalry, just not as wide of one. Even if you removed paladin completely, you have a unit at your castle that gives you an advantage over cav.
Khmer Elephants
I don’t know why you’re bringing them up.
Yeah, they’re stronger but also it’s a unit that’s expensive, takes 60 bonus damage from halbs and is easy to convert.
These negatives are so huge that I rarely see elephants made outside of Arena.
To me, it’s apples and oranges to compare Lith paladin and Khmer elephants.
I think people just want Lith paladins lost due to how much the overrated Frankish apaldin is loved to the death where is nerfed people just cry lol,
I don’t even understand what you’re trying to say here.
Liths have weaker eco
It’s not the best but it’s better than half of the civs in the game.
It gives you a really smooth start and you can execute some unorthodox stratagies with it, like easier drushing or sending all your villagers to wood with maps that have a lot of fish.
if you let Lith get all relics, is your problem, not the civ, period.
What if the map has a higher number of relics or the random map generation happens to place relics really close to a Lith player?
Would it be my problem for encountering Lithuanians then?
We don’t even need to argue about this, because it’s highly likely that some kind of nerf is coming for them, since they’re getting the Winged Hussar.
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Ppl crying again. Just dont let take the relics. Are you playing against Lith? You know that they will try take relics. So block them. Lol.
And nerf on 100 food is good way.
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In the short term yes. In the long term? Lithuanians have one of the worst booms in the game
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Being able to age up faster can put you ahead of civs who have worse eco in the dark age but stronger eco in later ages.
Even ignoring that, the Lithuanian +150 starting food is a better eco bonus than what at least 10+ civs in the game have.
I’m not saying to nerf the starting food though, because early eco bonuses are very important and I think the creative stuff you can do with the extra food is pretty interesting.
Personally, I think removing some of their starting food would be a harder nerf than removing some of their cavalry’s damage or the paladin upgrade.
Civs with poor eco tend to do worse, which is why Khmer used to be bottom tier before their eco buff and Persians used to be top tier in DE before their eco nerf.
yes it can, but by the time you hit castle age not only is that benefit gone, you’re actually behind.
but again - when it comes to actual booming in castle age, the Lithuanians are one of the worst the game has.
that was my point - yeah it’s absolutely great in the short term - but in the long term it’s awful.
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I think the relic bonus might get further nerfing because Lith paladins with 4 relics kill anything they encounter so something similar to Indian cav armor can be done there. So Indians have extra armor on age ups now which makes them stronger in castle age but they lack the final armor. So how similar logic can be implemented to Lith is that they can remove Blast Furnice. If they do this, lith knights will rule castle age but will not maintain their supremacy in imperial age, at least not as much as now. If you fail to get relics, you will not even have generic Paladins so it will give more reason to fight for relics.
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The difference is Indians bonuses are guaranteed and they have an insane economy to back it up. whereas Lithuanians bonus isn’t guaranteed at all, you have to actively work to apply the bonus, and attack is the worst stat for melee units as is.
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It is hands down the strongest dark age bonus, by far. Most other civs have to work for their bonus, i.e. Mongols have to get their boars, (so a good lame can deny some of that), Chinese, but again vulnerable to a good early lame, and Britons have to get their sheep, plus they aren’t good for Scout Cav opening (can do it, but it isn’t usually good). But for Lith the +150F makes them basically nearly immune to getting lamed, and gives them a stupidly fast Scout opening. Given that the best defense against Scouts is your own Scouts, this needs to be toned down to ideally +75F
off topic, but why does tower shield affect halbediers again. halberds are heavy two handed weapons, how are they even supposed to use these big shields. it makes zero sense.
- remove tower shield affecting halbs, and rework to +1 meele +1 piercearmor for skirms
- remove blast furnance
- relic bonus applies to all meele units and scales to 5 relics
- food bonus down to +125
- remove 1 water tech from the dock
- lithuanian receive winged hussar super hussar?
alternatively remove the relic bonus and change int to +1 in castle +2 in imp like teutons like someone above suggested. removes this annoying “oh no lith i must deny relics or else they become broken” while the lith is thinking “oh no i must secure relics or i got ‘only’ FU paladins and cant steamroll my counters”. unfun stress mechanic in my opinion
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you ask this about a game where meso civs have access to steel, crossbows, arbs, and siege weapons.
in a game where chinese have almost no gunpowder.
ina game where mamelukes ride camels and throw scimitars
where throwing axeman throw double headed axes.
and so much more.
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If FE insists on keeping the +150F bonus, then I’d remove Bloodlines and Bracer from the civ.
for an imp age unique tech this is awful.
for comparison silk armor gives +1/+1 to 3 UNITS and is available in CASTLE AGE, and all of them are offensive units, not counter units.
I think this is a bad idea all around. first of all making it apply to halbs when most their damage comes from bonus damage means it doesn’t really matter much at all, and champs without supplies or the final armor? yeah useless.
Paladins get knocked down to +3 max which sounds fair but only applies if you manage to get all 5 relics.
Leitis aren’t seen anymore so nothing really changes.
this is already happening as is.
id just tone it down to +100f.
this is fair.
yes remove bloodlines. from a cavalry civ. makes sense.
i could see nerfing the food bonus down to 100f. but 75 is too low.
on the other hand you just heavily nerfed their only real offensive threat - the civ is literally carried by the relic bonus, so to nerf them down to +1 attack in castle and +2 in imp would utterly gut the civ.
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Sorry but 150F is way too strong. It’s now a killall in Feudal Civ. I’d be okay with 100F and bracer removed. But ideally just tone it down to 75F
The 150 food being too good on water maps can be fixed by making the bonus as +150 food -50 wood instead. This will also take care of 2 minute drush possibilities.
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which is why i am fine with nerfing it to +100f.
why remove bracer?
75f is too far. Persians get 50 f and 50 wood and have a faster working TC on top of that and are now a mid tier civ.
better useless than broken :), so wouldnt matter anyway to change it then. it is more ment as a slight compensation since i had panned for their halbs to lose 2 pierce armor so giving them potential 3 meele atk instead seemed fair
neither is currently broken.
why change it if it doesn’t affect anything? change for the sake of change makes ZERO sense.
yes 2 pierce armor on a unit for 3 melee attack is totally fair - after all, for melee units survival and armor are the most important stats by far. after all - look what happened to the Leitis when they took away 1 pierce armor - the unit is not seen anymore.
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