[Long list] Balance Suggestions, serious!

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

I love this game very much. But there are some imbalance things in the game especially that the infantries are too weak. Here are all my ideas and hope some of them can be accepted especially the part of lowing infantry unique units’ costs. Militia has a lower price with Supplies but why not in infantry unique units?

On the other hand, I love some of the changes in DE version especially the [Kamandaran] which solve the problem that Persians is too feeble in Post-Imperial Age and they can protect War elephant from monks. However, the new units are not good. It is really not a good idea to create a “super unit” which a few of them can fight against a group of normal armies and use higher cost to be the balancing method (such as Conquistador, Arambai, War Wagon…). The new unique units created units should base on the regular units in Barrack, Archery Range and Stable. For example, Long swordsman has 9 AT, the infantry unique unit with higher AT must have an expense on other way. Jaguar Worrier has only 50HP, Teutonic Knight moves very slow, Huskarl is no melee armor and very expensive. According to it, all the three cavalry unique units with 100 up HP and 12 AT are really a bad designed.

Moreover, I think that units with cost discounts is really a strong advantage. I suggest that civs with unit cost discounts shouldn’t have the unique units with that type.

–Universal units–

[Eagle line]
The +2/+3/+4 attack bonus against cavalry change to +1/+2/+3 against archers.
(This unit is used for against range units but not knights)

[Imperial Skirmisher]
Delete this unit. Too imbalance especially with Aztecs.

[Hand Cannoneer]
HP: 35 → 40

[Steppe Lancer]

Delete this unit. Too imbalance. And why Mongols and Huns don’t have this unit? They are grassland civs too.

[Battering Ram]
Cost: 160W, 75G → 220W
(Better have a siege weapon needs no golds. To encourage players start fighting in castle age instead of just boom to imperial age. And also provide a chance to fight against tower rush and castle rush.)

[Fire Galley]
HP: 100 → 90

(Easier to be killed after attacked by a Demolition Raft)

–Universal technologies–

[Elitism] *(New technology)
Research Age: Imperial Age
Research Building: Castle
Civilization: All
Cost: 400F, 400G
Unique units can created be in Barracks / Archery Range / Stable / Siege Workshop, but the creation time are 4 times to the castle.

[Supplies]

Cost: 150F, 100G → 100F

(After upgraded to man-at-arms, the resources are very limited. If the cost of this technology is too high, it would not attract people to use infantry in feudal age even Japanese, Celts and Vikings)

[Fletching, Bodkin Arrow, Bracer]
No longer benefit the +1 AT and +1 range to castles and towers
(The castle is too friendly to the civilizations which focus on archers.)

[Arrowslits]
Research Age: Imperial Age → Castle Age
Cost: 250F, 250W → 50F, 100W
+1 AT and +1 range to castles and towers
→ Available to all civilizations

[Guard Tower] and [Keep]
Rename [Stronghold] and [Fortress]
New bonus: +1 AT and +1 range to castles and towers

–Other—

{Aztecs}

  1. [Jaguar Warrior]
    Cost: 60F, 30G → 45F, 30G

HP: 50 → 60

AT: 10 → 8
Training time: 20 → 9

  1. [Garland Wars]

Infantry have +4 attack → Jaguar Worriers and Eagle Worriers move 10% faster

  1. Military units created 15 % faster → Infantries AT +1 in Feudal Age, +1 in Castle Age, +2 in Imperial Age
    (Aztecs is described as a infantry civilization but has no bonus to infantry up to imperial. However, the [Garland Wars] which +4 AT to infantry which you need resources to research. How stupid it is! Burmese is not an infantry civ but the infantry can +AT directly! Jaguar Worrier with 8+2 AT can still kill a long Swordsman in 3 hits.)

{Berbers}

None

{Britons}

None

{Bulgarians}

  1. [Konnik]

HP: 110 → 80

AT: 12 → 11

(I don’t know why this revivable unit has higher HP, AT than knight, but has a lower cost. 11 AT can fit to kill a pikeman with 5 hits.)

{Burmese}

  1. [Arambai]
    Cost: 80W, 60G → 60W, 40G
    AT: 17 → 10, 19 → 15 (Elite)
    Range: 5 → 4
    Armor: 0/1 → 1/0, 0/2 → 2/0 (Elite)
    (Undoubtedly an imbalance unit, and also it is nonsense for cold weapons have higher attack than firearms. This unit should be better designed to become a mixture of Conquistador and mameluke.)

  2. Available to upgrade to Leather Archer Armor and Ring Archer Armor
    (After remaking Arambai, it is a need)

  3. Not available to upgrade to Plate Mail Armor

  4. Infantries +1 AT per age → Bloodlines upgrades free

(It bonuses to both UU and elephants.)

{Byzantines}

  1. [Cataphract]
    Armor: 2/1 → 2/2, 2/1 → 3/2 (Elite)

[Upgrade to Elite Cataphract]
Cost: 1600F, 800G → 1400F, 700G

{Celts}

  1. [Woad Raider]
    Cost: 65F, 25G → 50F, 25G

{Chinese}

  1. [Chu Ko Nu]
    AT: 8+3+3 → 4 for each arrow
    AT: 8+3+3+3+3 → 4 for each arrow (Elite)
    (It stabilizes the attack, but the total damage is close to the original one VS the enemy with different armors, I have tried.)

  2. [Rocketry]
    Chu Ko Nu AT+2 → +1

{Cumans}

None

{Ethiopians}

  1. [Shotel Warrior]
    Cost: 50F, 35 G → 40F, 35G
    AT: 16 → 13

  2. The foot archers attack speed +20% → Foot archers cost -20%

(Ethiopians is an archer civ but the special unit is not archer. It is better let it be easier to form a group of archers.)

  1. Not allow to build stone wall.

(Cheaper archery, auto-upgraded pikeman, fast creating UU and extra resources every age. This civ is really suitable to Sea of ​​tactics instead of goths.)

{Franks}

None

{Goths}

  1. [Huskarl]
    Cost: 80F + 40G → 60F + 40G
    Armor: [0/6] → [0/5], [0/8] → [0/7] (Elite)
    Training time: 16 → 12

  2. [Anarchy] *(If [Elitism] is accepted)
    Cost: 450F, 250G → 300F, 300G
    Huskarl be created 100% faster

  3. The infantries cost reduction → Buildings cost -20% stone

  4. Able to research Plate Mail Armor

5.Able to build stone wall

(No one will disagree that Huskarl is the selling point of Goths. Huskarl is the most useful infantry unit following Halberdier. Having a cheaper castle let it easier to produce Huskarl. Also, as I mentioned above, I don’t suggest a civ with identical special unit can have unit cost reduction.)

{Huns}

  1. [Marauders] *(If [Elitism] is accepted)
    Cost: 450W, 250G → 300F, 300G
    Tarkan be created 100% faster.

  2. Not available to upgrade to Paladin
    (Huns are nomadic civilization, why will they have paladin?! In the past, Huns includes Hungary, but now we already have Magyars! And also the elite Tarkan has 4 pierce armor now, it is strong enough.)

{Incas}

  1. Special unit change from [Kamayuk] to [Slinger]
    [Slinger]

Cost: 30F + 40G → 30F + 50G

HP: 40 → 35

AT: 4 → 7

Range: 5 → 6

Rate of fire: 2.03 → 3.05

No bonus from [Fletching, Bodkin Arrow, Bracer]

  1. Add [Elite Slinger]

HP: 40

AT: 10

Range: 7

+15 AT against infantry

  1. [Kamayuk]
    Cost: 60F, 30G → 45F, 30G

or better delete this unit.

  1. The buildings cost -15% stone change to infantries cost -20%

(The game state that Incas is a infantry civ but there is no any bonus to infantries. That’s why give it a infantry cost reduction. Besides, unlike Aztecs and Mayans, they are focus in infantries and archers respectively. Incas should be focus in both and so it has full blacksmith technology in both. Finally, the use of yamayuk is overlapping with Halberdier but obviously it is not effective enough to fight against knights. It better changes the special unit to slinger.)

{Indians}

None

{Italians}

None

{Japanese}

  1. [Samurai]
    Cost: 60F, 30G → 45F, 30G

{Khmer}

Battle Elephants move 15% faster → Battle Elephants cost – 30%

(Khmer is really a weak civ… it doesn’t has any economy bonus. Better let it has cheaper elephants.)

{Koreans}

  1. [War Wagon]
    AT: 9 → 11, 9 → 16 (Elite)
    No longer be benefited from Fletching, Bodkin Arrow, Bracer, like gunpowder units.
    (It better changes from a long-range cavalry archer to become a shorter range unit but more powerful)

{Lithuanians}

  1. [Leitis]

HP: 100 → 105, 130 → 165 (Elite)

AT: 12 → 8, 14 → 11 (Elite)

or even better replace this unit to [Kamayuk], because Leitis is really an infantry.

{Magyars}

None

{Malay}

Battle Elephants cost – 30% → Battle Elephants move 15% faster

{Malians}

None

{Mayans}

  1. [Plumed Archer]
    Cost: 50W + 50G → 40W + 40G
    HP: 50 → 40, 65 → 50 [Elite]
    Rate of fire: 1.93 → 2.03 (and also elite)

(According to the Mayan’s history, people with lower post would become archer, the worriers are in higher positions. It is not possible to a archer has higher cost than a worrier.)

  1. [Obsidian Arrow] → [Obsidian Armor]

Eagle Worrier melee armor +1, pierce +2

  1. [El Dorado]
    Eagle Warriors HP +40 → +40% (84HP in full technology)
    Plumed archer HP + 40% (70 HP in full technology)

(100 HP Eagle warriors are too strong)

  1. The foot archers cost reduction → Foot archers attack speed +20%

  2. Not allowed to research [Plate mail Armor]

{Mongols}

None

{Persians}

  1. [War Elephant]
    Cost: 200F, 75G → 140F, 70G
    HP: 450 → 290, 600 → 350
    Training time: 31 → 19
    (I don’t think it is funny when I create a very expensive unit and then be converted to be an enemy)

  2. [Upgrade to Elite War Elephant]
    Cost: 1600F, 1200G → 1400F, 900G

  3. 2x HP to Town Center and Dock starting in Feudal Age instead of Dark Age
    (Otherwise it will be too strong in Nomad and dark age fight)

{Portuguese}

None

{Saracens}

None

{Slavs}

  1. [Boyar]
    Training time: 23 → 20

{Spanish}

  1. [Conquistador]
    AT: 16 → 12
    Range: 6 → 5
    (Undoubtedly it is an imbalance unit, no units against it effectively.)

{Tatars}

  1. [Keshik]

Cost: 50F, 80G → 70F, 60G

HP: 100 → 95, 130 → 150 (Elite)

AT: 12 → 9, 14 → 13

Armor: [1/2] → [3/1], [1/3] → [4/1] (Elite)

+9, +12 (Elite) AT against Cavalry.

(With this value, Keshik would be suitable to against melee units especially knight, but no change with pikeman. And also worse to against archer. It solves the problem that Tatars with no Halberdier.)

{Teutons}

  1. [Teutonic Knight]
    Cost: 85F, 40G → 60F, 30G
    DF: 5/2 → 6/2

{Turks}

  1. [Janissary]
    AT: 17 → 14
    Range: 8 → 7
    (I don’t think skirmishers are the threat to them. Also turks can upgrade Light Cavalry automatically.)

  2. [Sipahi]
    Cavalary Archers HP +20 → Gunpowder units HP + 25%

  3. Gunpowder units HP +25% → Cavalry Archer HP +25%
    (After building a castle, will we still create Cavalry Archer? NO!)

{Vietnamese}

  1. [Rattan Archer]
    HP: 40 → 35, 45 → 40 (Elite)
    AT: 6 → 5, 7 → 6 (Elite)

  2. [Paper money]
    After Tributes the 500 gold to each ally, all of them +1 gold per 2 seconds

  3. The +20% archer HP suit to Rattan Archer

(As the HP of Rattan Archer is lower)

{Vikings}

  1. [Berserk]
    Cost: 65F, 25G → 50F, 25G
    Training time: 14 → 10

{Others} (Not important)

  1. Change the mod of War elephant and Battle (So the elephants from stable would have no people riding. The special units from castles will be ridden by a man / archer / scorpion)

  2. [Teutonic Knight] change the name to [Crusaders]

3 Likes
2

You sometimes adrees some real issues but you shoot over the goal by miles!

8 Likes
3

Sorry I don’t understand your meaning.

4

I appreciate a lot the effort you made on developing this topic!

But don’t get too excited on that. Devs already spoken out that they don’t like a lot being proactive or omnibus about balance. They rather like players themselves to figure how to deal with the challenges in the game (or the metagame) and only make a few balances here and there.

And WHY that?? Just freely take away some particularities from teutons for nothing. :weary:

5

Remove the Steppe Lancers from Cumans so only Tartars have them.

The Cumans are overpowered and the Tartars lack identity. Removing Steppe Lancers from Cumans solves both those problems.

3 Likes
6

Ethiopians on turbo mode are really OP. You can build 3 castles and flood your enemy, by ignoring his army, just targeting castles and buildings.

7

Great list indeed, though I disagree with the “renaming” of units / buildings. The game had these names for almost 20 years it would be very strange for players to adapt to new names needlessly

8

Almost none of the balance changes make sense for a competitive standpoint, sorry.

6 Likes
9

Swapping when the Turks gain their Cav Archer HP would be more beneficial early on. You won’t need the Gunpowder HP, until you go Imp or build a Castle.

11

Can you describe more detail? In fact, most I want is deduce the cost of infantry UU. They are seldom to be seen even in lower level game play.

12

Good. I agree with you.

13

I think all infantry UU (even including the teutonic knight) are in a fine spot balance wise. If anything, the balance change for swordsmanline even encourages usage of the UU’s.

Woad raiders are very mobile and much less weak vs archers/siege

Jaguars will likely get more use due to the new supplies tech

Kamayuks are quite tanky, move faster than champs and are basically a more balanced version of steppe lancer (can stack up and use their range very well)

Throwing axes are almost overbuffed (move a LOT faster than aoc (they got +0.1 speed and squires)
They’re incredible unit in 1v1s particularly, meaning that if they stall the game for a bit, (which is easy thanks to franks great eco and cheap castles) throwing axes are pretty much uncounterable as the game goes on

Berserks move significantly faster than champs and are also incredibly efficient as the game goes on. Chieftains make them even great in team games

Samurais create very fast from castles, have bonus vs many UUs , and most importantly, it also moves faster than champs. iirc the elite upgrade is fairly cheap as well.

TK remains situational but it is good in lategame scenarios where the opponent is forced to take a fight. Even vs ranged units they’re quite tanky

The ‘issue’ with infantry UU is that they’re almost never viable in early castle age. But that is due to how the game is designed, infantry has high food cost and food is easily the most valuable resource in early castle age, meaning xbows and knights dominate. In late castle age/imperial age infantry is definitely used at a competitive level

1 Like
14

Cumans should start without stone and step lancer given to Huns and Mongols however, this should be seriously nerfed or be more expensive.

15

Just delete this unit is the best choice.
We can see how many people are complaining in another post.
In my mind, light cavalry means steppe cavalry.

16

You have a ton of stuff on here so I’m not going to reply to all of it but I wanted to comment on a few things.

First, I know that steppe lancers are utterly broken right now but I do not want them deleted from the game. There are ways to balance this unit, lower stats, slower attack rate, possibly slower move speed and a higher cost or some combination of them without making it useless.

I totally agree with removing the knight line from some of the civs like huns. I believe that they and Mongols should have their knight lines replaced by steppe lancers once that unit is balanced.

I think at this point there are enough semi-unique units (eagles, elephants, camels and steppe lancers) that some of the civs that have them historically didn’t really use a European style armour knight can probably just lose access to that line and possibly be compensated for it in another way if needed.

I actually think the elitism tech is an interesting concept, if you had enough building you could actually reliably build UUs. They just wouldn’t be produced as quickly as standard units, which is fine since they are typically stronger.

Anyway I don’t agree with all of it but you makes some great points overall, good post

17

This can’t be done, because breaks backwards compatibility for scenarios.

1 Like
18

I am quite interested with the goldless Battering Ram.
We already have goldless units (spearman, skimisher and light cavalry) from Barracks, Archery Ranges and Stables,
so why don’t make a goldless unit from the Siege Workshop?

19

Like your ideas, I have a few suggestions I would like to add to this.
Scorpions, make them more useful, by mirroring historical uses, First If your hit by one of these things your dead, or at least make them do more damage then a fully upgraded Arbalest crossbowmen. Also fix the range, in medieval times these things shot out to about 400 meters.
In comparison the record for longest shot with a longbow was at Finsbury Fields in the 16th century was 315 meters.

20

These changes seem like a list compiled by someone who has no actual clue how the civs or the game is played to begin with.

3 Likes
21

I don’t know you are serious or just kidding me. I would be very disappointed if you are serious.
If you disagree that I suggest to change too much about the civs’ characteristic, that is fine. Maybe some of the player don’t want to change too much.
But at least the OP UUs (include the 3 new cavalry UUs) must be nerfed and the infantry UUs must be buffed.

  1. In the old version, longswordsman costs 80 unit resource and the infantry UUs cost 90 unit resource. Both of them are difficult to be seen as they are too expensive. Now, with the supplies, the longswordsman costs 65 unit resources only. How unfair that the infantry UUs keep costing 90 unit resources? With a very simple comparison, longbowman and chu ko nu cost 5 units resources more to crossbowman, cataphract costs 10 units resources more to knight. But why an infantry UU costs 25 units resources more to longswordsman? I am just require for lowing the 15 food cost as well as the longswordsman. Don’t forget you can only create the UU after you built a castle.

  2. To yours descriptions about the infantry UUs, you are just pointing out their advantages and I can do this to any other units. But the game results prove that they are still not worth to be created - they are difficult to be seen. Comparing to the range UUs, if I built a castle, I would rather combine using longbowman (a little bit stronger and expensive but worth it) with crossbowman (can be mass produced). If I have many castles, I would just create longbowman. But I would not make the infantry UUs unless I am much economic stronger than my opponent (If I am stronger, I can overcome the problems of wrong decided units but that is meaningless).

  3. You have described 7 infantry UUs but I only agree with the throwing axeman. Yes, only throwing axeman is at the balance state and so it is the easiest to be seen. I would not disagree to -1 AT if make it 15 units resources cheaper (If you don’t see throwing axeman, the reason is the knights in franks are so OP and this is the problem of throwing axeman. In fact Franks has the highest win rate in the game). However, you mentioned that Woad raiders, Jaguars, Kamayuks, Samurais, tutonic knights can counter archers, infantries, cavalries, UUs, melee units, I know this fact but here is a logical problem: “Why I have to use the UU to become a countering method but not being my main force?” In fact, UUs are originally main force of a civ, they are not trash units, they need golds! Why I have to make my UU in passive way to counter the opponent but not I create my UU first to forbid my opponent to create such units? (Because even I can mass produces the infantry UUs, they are too expensive to become the main force!)

  4. To the last point, you have mentioned that due to the game design, food is the most precious resource in early castle age. I agree with this because we should keep creating villages and research the Bow Saw. However, even the food is limited, people still love creating knights even it costs 60 food. Why? Because it is worth, unlike the infantry UUs. Starting from imperial age, the use of infantry become much more common not because of having too many food, the reason is the gold is limited! This is the problem of using knights and other expensive units that player have to face. But it does not mean that you have solve the problem that infantry UU costing too much food which is not worth. This problem is especially obvious in castle age because every resources wouldn’t be the limiting factor.