Magyars buff ideas

[TougherTrack508]

@PlumpDucklin

Change that to 60f/30g with corv changing gold to food at a discount (back to flat 80f) makes them far more usable in castle age

Sounds fun, but would you really make them over knights if you value food more than gold? You could even go for 60f/20g.

[SMUM15236]

@casusincorrabil

But that would also probably be too powerful for Magyars.

Or we can be creative and hunting becomes their eco bonus but no extra or faster food.

@PlumpDucklin

Going by this and reading your other comments I think you’re trying to make them something they aren’t

Like?

@PlumpDucklin

They aren’t only a cavalry civ. They’re flexible civ.

And how am I taking the flexibility? Also the flexibility on tech tree doesn’t mean flexible civ. A civ with full tech tree but no bonus will still be less flexible than Huns.

@PlumpDucklin

that’s why they have better vision on foot archers.

A total waste of TB tbh. This could be a good TB for an Archer civ. As Magyars, you won’t train archer because of this bonus. You will have future potential with FU arbalester, and that’s the primary reason you may stick to archer as your main army if situation arrives.

@PlumpDucklin

You are projecting what you want of the civ instead of trying to understand what the civ needs.

Good call. My understanding is they need better distinction from Berbers and Huns. But maybe ironically I made them even similar. I have an overhaul idea which will for sure make them very different from those 2 civs. However, since I’m kinda conservative myself, a big overhaul proposal from me will be an U-turn.

@PlumpDucklin

CA faster Training is fine. As a TB it might be too much, but who knows, but the discount is too much. Huns CA are cheaper but don’t have faster training +1/1 dmg and armour and discounted FU scouts. Did you even try to think of this objectively?

I’ll admit I didn’t. Again I’ve contradicted myself. I’m always against giving cheaper+faster taring bonus to same civ (Yes, I despise Goths). And yet ended up asking to do so for Magyars. I initially thought of reducing knight line gold cost by 10 as an additional effect. But that was way before Poles introduce. Now it will be an overlap which I’m always against.

[casusincorrabil]

@SMUM15236

Or we can be creative and hunting becomes their eco bonus but no extra or faster food.

They could something mixed like the goth and khmer farm bonus. Meaning theire hunters don’t need to drop off food, they also collect 20-30 % more but at a reduced speed. When done right it’s possible that magyars get a bit more from hunt, are a bit easier to handle for beginners as you don’t need to manually drop of, but as the hunters are generally a bit less efficient, in the long term the effect is comparable to Tatars.
Interesting are the implications for laming, as with this bonus, sending vills forward and actually collecting the enemy hunt looks like a really strong strategy.

@SMUM15236

A total waste of TB tbh. This could be a good TB for an Archer civ. As Magyars

TBH i’m fine with magayrs TB. Magyars are a very strong pocket civ, especially on open maps. Their TB benefits their flanks which is also nice. Imo Magyars are perfeclty fine for TGs.
Would be nice if they could also play Flank there, like a “flex pick”, but they fill the pocket role usually just fine.

@SMUM15236

better distinction from Berbers and Huns

I think their distinction is that they have access to all 3 power lines FU. And if that’s their distinct speciality they maybe should just be pushed more into that direction. A flexible eco bonus that supports all three strategies. And I think the mentioned HUnt bonus could do that (without impacting game modes like EW where magyars already kinda shine.

[J04ch1mus]

@EvilPanda494

We saw in this patch completely fine civs like malians or ethiopians getting big buffs, and become more interesting to play. so it’s not like it’s unprecedented

Yeah, those civs were already fine, which is why I think those changes were also unnecessary.

I’m fine with balancing civs, but I think balance changes shouldn’t change a civ’s design too much, especially when the civs were fine to begin with. Some of these changes definitely went too far.

[Zelley00]

@casusincorrabil

Would be nice if they could also play Flank there, like a “flex pick”, but they fill the pocket role usually just fine.

They are one of the best civ to pick in lobby open maps when you dont know where you’ll land. And probably thanks to that, they are one if the most played civ (7th now, 5th before this patch) and a very popular civ for 1-civ-mains.

But I don’t think they can easily be used as a flex pick because:

• To make flex picks work, we usually need a pick & ban phase
• There are too few good cavalry (Paladins/boosted cavaliers) civs and too many good archer civs, so using Magyars as flanks in a tounament with P&B force you to have a way worse pocket civ
• In AoE2 team games, your opponent knows what you’ll do from the get-go: either archers->xbows->arbalesters/HCA or scouts->knights/Camels->cavaliers/HCamels, so you do not get anything by using a flex pick rather than a civ that is better at the position

@casusincorrabil

I think their distinction is that they have access to all 3 power lines FU. And if that’s their distinct speciality they maybe should just be pushed more into that direction. A flexible eco bonus that supports all three strategies

I personally dislike the idea of Magyar buffs because of that reason. The civ is super popular (pick rate) and has an above average win rate (skewed by arabia, but still), and people still say they are “bland” (even if only in castle age). No they aren’t bland because otherwise they wouldnt have 3.4% pick rate (above civs like Huns, Khmer, … that are deemed “more interesting”).
The reason is probably that some players pick this civ with awesome late game tech tree (all 3 power units + top tier trash), and then expect an good and fancy early to mid game. This is not how game design should work.

[SMUM15236]

@PlumpDucklin

Huszars could probably do with a tweak. ATM they’re 80f/10g

Change that to 60f/30g with corv changing gold to food at a discount (back to flat 80f) makes them far more usable in castle age, without hurting their imperial viability.

Reducing food cost will obviously make any unit more viable in Castle Age. But why would you spend 30 gold on Magyar Huszar over Knight in Castle Age?

@casusincorrabil

They could something mixed like the goth and khmer farm bonus.

Any type of extra food bonus will automatically make them leaning towards more on scout which goes against the flexibility that you mentioned earlier. Obviously scout is their best opening but you don’t want to make them less flexible.

@Zelley00

There are too few good cavalry (Paladins/boosted cavaliers) civs and too many good archer civs, so using Magyars as flanks in a tounament with P&B force you to have a way worse pocket civ

And unfortunately Magyars is not good at either, at least not good enough.

@Zelley00

I don’t think they can easily be used as a flex pick

Indeed. In TG, Archer with 2 LOS is nowhere close to archer with early bonus like Japanese or even Byzantines.

@Zelley00

The reason is probably that some players pick this civ with awesome late game tech tree (all 3 power units + top tier trash), and then expect an good and fancy early to mid game. This is not how game design should work.

Exactly. That’s why I’m skeptical about Magyars having an early eco bonus.

@Zelley00

No they aren’t bland because otherwise they wouldnt have 3.4% pick rate (above civs like Huns, Khmer, … that are deemed “more interesting”).

Knight civs have higher pick rate in general ever since we have stats. But they are being picked less and less over time as other knight civs are becoming more interesting.

I guess Persians and Magyars have lost their charm to Malians in this patch.