Zelly I think you have the best idea here and its not even a buff but a slight nerf to manors in general!
putting a 20 pop cap on manor vils would mean the last house you build if one were destroyed and no villagers were killed would give you zero vils.
if a vil dies but no manors well then it could be used to abuse and retrain that vil again very quickly, but then there is the wood cost to consider so its not exactly free or anything.
Where it gets tricky is there is also a brit card that allows manors to train vils which then needs to be made clearā¦ (what will you be training? manor vils, regular vils, also this card is awesome, the best brit card for FFA because it means that you both do not want to, and yet have to kill manors and brits become one of the hardest civs to knock out if they want to hide and run)
it also gets tricky in that a vil cap of 80 regular settlers means if manor vils are killed then one has to destroy the houses and rebuild them to get back to pop. so its kind of a roundabout way to retain vils,
it is good though as a slight brit nerf because the enemy can feel free to try to house brits knowing they are not going to get super boomy vil graphs out of it (unless they also kill those vils, but then they would be in economic trouble anyway)
all in all its some convoluted changed that have to be made to make it work and be clearā¦ i think just careful planning is in order if you play brits, spread them out for good map control its a really strong incentive to not kill them and use them for LOS.
I dont see why it would be hard to plan in advance where to build your manors. If you find yourself in need of free place often for different buildings then just place manors not near you tc. Plan ahead.
Making them deletable opens a path to manor abuse by getting cheaper settlers as an already pretty strong civ.
Yeah, more a nerf than a buff because you trade the ability to rebuild manor against the ability to get another villager witohut TC time if an opponent destroys a manor.
Yeah, this is also a limit to the idea. You can use these manor-settlers more aggressively because it is less troublesome for your economy to retrain them.
It would be regular villagers, it would not make sense to only train up to 20 villagers from manors with this card.
I donāt think it works that way. It shuold be the same with settler wagons:
German have a limit of 20 settler wagons and 99 villager units. Your number of settler wagons plus your number of regular settlers is capped at 99. You can have 99 settlers, or you can have 80 settlers and 19 settler wagons. Settler wagons should not decrease the limit of regular settler they can train.
USA has a limit of 5 settler wagons that appear from mills when using the german immigrants card. The card does not decrease the number of settlers you can get (even though you want to max the number of settler wagons)
I fully agree.
It feels wrong to me to not be able to delete manors when against british, and it also feel weird to have a strong incentive against destroying manors from my opponent.
But on the other side it should be fine if it is the indended mechanics and not just some āband aidā only to balance the british. And if most people feel that this feature is more of a ānice flavor to the britishā than an annoyance, then I guess it is fine to keep it that way.
So basically it would be that when you make a house, on the house would be a button to retrain a vil from it, but since you are given the vil with the house it is not availbile to train a vil from the house until the vil is deleted and the manor vils are less than the # of manors availibleā¦ ok, then the manor vil training card then allows up to 80 regular vils to be trained from the manors, showing 2 different villager types (yet the same) to be trained from the manorsā¦
if something like this happened I do not think there should be any way for players to know, otherwise one may send the manor vils to gather more risky mines since they know if raided could be trained 20 at a time, while if they lost reg vils would have to train only from the TC.
it could workā¦ and work out good for both players and be a nerf to brits in that there would be incentive to kill manors to house them.
oops, well now I see another problem that this may not work or be abusedā¦ in the cost of building a villager from a manor there is the build time. So a manor of 135 wood, plus the 15 sec or so to make it adds to the cost value of making a villager from a manor when all that pop space is not needed.
If you lose a villager and can retrain then from manors, then at what cost? if it is a normal cost of house then its actually cheaper to retrain a vil from a manor since there would be no villager build time.
If the player uses the card that makes manors almost instantly then there is the problem that if say you lose 5 manor vils in a raid, they can be remade near instantly making raids almost worthless, it would cost wood for them, but not much in villager seconds of gathering lost.
this whole thing really opens up a can of worms that maybe should not be openedā¦
What about a hidden counter that monitors when a manor is deleted, meaning your next manor built doesnāt reward you a villager but does reduce that counter, meaning the next built manor will again reward villagers.
Even simpler just have a limit of 20 villagers free from manor building and then no more. Doesnāt matter if you delete manors or they got destroyed, no more vills
Yeah, this is a problem I noticed afterward. You can abuse this feature by using the manor-settlers aggressively because they are easier to re-train. The cost would have been to delete and rebuild a house, so 135w (90 with Virgina Company) and 20s of villager time (2s with a card).
In my first post on this topic I guessed that the raw cost of building a manor and getting the free settler is similar to the 100f cost of a settler. The (big) difference being that the manor does not use up your TC time, so you end up with more villagers more quickly as if you had multiple TCs.
In the end, this may be the best solution if we allow deleting manors. We just need manors to display something like āX/20 villagers provided by manorsā, so it is clear that you cannot abuse the manor-boom by deleting manors.
I would be outraged as a bit player though if the vil produced was capped at 20, and after that no more could be made if I lost some mannors. For one it would completely change brits use of aggressive LOS mannors.
Maybe there could be a benefit that destroying a manor and getting half the wood bounty back would be a fair tradeā¦
all in all though, this change just gets too messy just to delete manors, its really a marginal needā¦ no one, no matter what civ you play should really be deleting housesā¦ just plan them more carefully with brits.
No, they are supposed to be able to be deleted as long as they are buildings.
Donāt you careful plan when you build TC and fort? Then why can TC and fort be deleted? Outright banning the deletion of manors and just saying ācarefully plannedā are lazy and irresponsible for balancing work.
Whatās more, the balancing suggestion we put forward is actually not difficult to understand, and it is almost the same as in the past under normal use.
This told you that if the manor is destroyed by opponents rather than deleted by yourself, the new manor could still spawn the settler. Donāt be outraged.
Yes I carefully plan my buildings. If I build A TC or send a fort shipment I generally have no plans to delete them. Sometimes I do in FFA when late game I want to build a TC near my FB so I can send vils to make more FB from the ones that get killed, or as Russia moving forts is neededā¦ but its not the same those buildings serve a purpose, but houses are static, so even rarer is the need to delete a house. Once houses are set they are set. really the only time I would delete a house was if I was trying to defend my base but a house was causing a choke point.
So far no one has come up with a easy to implement and understand system for deleting houses that does not alter the meta in some way. Still questions about this possible solution, you are at 10 houses, you delete 1 and an enemy kills one, when does the free vil not pop? Is it the first house you build to replace? the 2nd? or the last of the 20? I think that would be pretty hard to code and get right.
People usually donāt need to delete any buildings or units. But the infrequent need to delete is not a reason to make it undeletable.
Easy. In this case, you have already spawned 10 free settlers, and there are still 11 free settlers havenāt spawned yet. I donāt see whatās so hard to figure out about this.
Just imagine a invisible counter for free settlers that starts with 20.
When a manor is built and the counter > 0 ā counter -1 and the manor spawns a settler.
When a manor is built but the counter = 0 ā counter keep 0 and the manor spawns nothing.
When a manor is destroyed by opponent ā counter +1.
When a manor is deleted by yourself ā no increase or decrease.
Under normal use, it is the same as the original mechanic. As long as any manor is destroyed, rebuilding will definitely continue to reward free settler. The only difference is that once the free settler counter is 0, deleting and rebuilding will not reward settlers.
its not a counter of 20. its a counter of unlimited based on how many manors are destroyed and rebuilt. So if you lose one then you could max out at 21 vils, or lose 10 and make 30 vils by making manors.
But somewhere in there you deleted 5 housesā¦ so your building 25 houses to get to max pop, well actually if you have TC you do not even need to remake those houses. you could stop at 21. (wont get free vils from them and with 45 pop of TC only need 16 houses) with 3 TC, or even less if you got the 2000coin 100 pop tech.
I have never advocated that there is a fixed maximum of 20 free settlers without any exception.
My idea is just to allow manor to be deleted just like other buildings while not allowing to get more extra free settlers by deleting and rebuilding it Yourself.
Maybe youāre confusing my idea with someone elseās.
The counter is for the free settlers who havenāt been spawned, not for the manors.
So the preset number is 20 in the beginning and decreasing when manors spawn settlers until it reaches 0.
Only increases when the manor is destroyed by opponents, thatās all.
should factories, forts and wonders be allowed to be rebuilt for better placement?
what if someone finds my hidden factory but I stopped them from besieging it, so now I want to move it.
or maybe I placed it by mistake because my mouse was on the fritz, or had to place it in a bad position because I shipped it in the middle of an attack and needed to place it before sniped?
Or my agra fort needs to defend a better position (same for a fort for any civ other than Russia) or if I had just placed it 2 tiles over I could fit a farm better in my TR base limits? (same problem for factories)
honestly these are much more useful things to be able to delete and rebuild than houses.
Well, this thread is about the British manor so I donāt discuss too many other buildings.
Forts can be built by European explorers after sending the card. If you want to discuss about factories or wonders, you can create another thread. In fact, there is already a similar thread.
However, those important buildings can still be deleted by the player even if they cannot be rebuilt.
As a building, it is very counter-intuitive to design that the manor cannot be deleted.
just so you know I mentioned it here because you did as well, about being able to delete other buildings, but it is the same principle. Sometimes they get in the way and need to be movedā¦ but brits special bonus makes it OP to do that.
As long as they cannot spawn settlers every time they built, their power will be controlled.
Again, outright banning the deletion of manors and just saying ācarefully plannedā are lazy and irresponsible for balancing work.
Just let manors be common sense buildings that are deletable.
brits balance is not based on deleting manorsā¦ as well this game is based on asymmetrical balance.
There are really so few instances to delete manors. Basically making room in TR is the best one, because you could make more barracks in the space of the manors by deleting 4 or using the 100 pop tech to delete 14 of them for more base space.
In SUP good players spread them out to get closer to far away Res or make lines of them for LOS. there is no need to delete them in that.
before coding something and spending all the time and money to fix that many other things should be done.