Unique units are there not to be used as a replacement of generic units, but to fill a certain niche. For Mameluke, thats an expensive effective pikemen/camel combo niche.
Oh you mean SO flatten Mamelukes? Fun fact, removing archer armor doesn’t change this matchup. You mean ballistic elephant melt Mamelukes? That Saracen player must have been quite bad because the food cost of those elephants are considerable.
You want to know why pros dont just mass unique units outside of a few kind (oh the most famous mangudai)? Castle + 85 gold is enough to deter the production for many people. I bet you won’t see many uses of war elephants for roughly the same reason. Also, if a game is entering the stage where Mameluke can be massed, I’d argue thats either team game, or some sort of special setting where mass mamelukes is viable.
I dont know what game you are watching, but the game I see (1500-ish elo. Sometimes higher, or just straight pro tournament matches), mamelukes certainly can’t dominate anything outside of winning small fights here and there.
At this point, I see you want mameluke buffed with a strong passion. I respect that but I strongly doubt that will ever happen, at least in short term.
Who on hearth would never go camel/pikeman combo they both get deleted by the same unit type. Going camel is always a better idea, easier to mass and doesn’t get killed by skirms.
Oh you mean SO flatten Mamelukes? Fun fact, removing archer armor doesn’t change this matchup. You mean ballistic elephant melt Mamelukes? That Saracen player must have been quite bad because the food cost of those elephants are considerable.
Oh you mean SO flatten Mamelukes? Fun fact, removing archer armor doesn’t change this matchup.
Exactly so remove archer armor class. It’s not an archer and archers are very strong vs them.
This is the same argument for saracens, massing mamelukes takes time but in can always happen same as balista elephants on team games. The only real counter to that is if you are lucky to have seige onagers and seige onager is not a hard counter if the enemy has good counters to the seige onager.
Also, if a game is entering the stage where Mameluke can be massed, I’d argue thats either team game, or some sort of special setting where mass mamelukes is viable.
You just seige onagers them or scorpion seige them like any massed unit in the game and they are done.
At this point, I see you want mameluke buffed with a strong passion. I respect that but I strongly doubt that will ever happen, at least in short term.
I’m not here hoping anything would ever happen i’m just here to voice my concern on the unit and will still voice my concern on the unit. It’s usability is nearly non-existant. Even if they decide to nerf it I dont care. I’m already thankful for forgotten empires and microsoft to make the best remake in the gaming industry.
If you were to remove the archer armor class Mamelukes would not have any trash counter. So in that sense they would be analogous to the champion line, but more mobile and with bonus damage vs cavalry.
If you were to remove the archer armor class Mamelukes would not have any trash counter. So in that sense they would be analogous to the champion line, but more mobile and with bonus damage vs cavalry.
Whats the trash counter to massed balists elephants, cataphracts, huksarlks, berserks… I could add a tons? Yet they all train faster and cost hella less gold.
Halberdiers also eat Mangudai if you dont micro them, camel archers have considerable trouble cleaning mass halberdiers up too, yet noone would ever consider them a counter to a mobile ranged unit with low attack delay.
Of course they lose to a Paladin 1v1, they only cost a fraction of the price. They still are a hard counter to paladins.
Mamelukes have even lower attack delay than Mangudai of course they can hit and run. yeah, they have much lower range which can make it a bit more awkard. Still halbs are not really a counter.
Mamelukes have even lower attack delay than Mangudai of course they can hit and run. yeah, they have much lower range which can make it a bit more awkard. Still halbs are not really a counter.
You clearly did not read the discussion above The extremely rare occasion where a pro Mr Yo decided to go mamelukes got destroyed by un upgraded halbs. Even hera said the unit is bad.
Like I said Halbs are a counter and there are tons of other strong units that have 0 trash counter as the list I have posted above. Like if the unit was any good we would see it in pro play or tournament its not even close.
I did read the discussion, but i’m not gonna watch a 40 minute video without a timestamp, for the sake of an argument. Especially if other users already pointed out:
Half your list are infantry units which are not supposed to have a trash counter.
The cataphract’s whole gimmick is to not have trash counters and therefore be worse than paladins in every other aspect and the ballista elephant is a siege unit and they cant outrun halbs, so unless you have a big mass of them to kill them before they arrive, they do have a trash counter and even then you just need a view rams to garrison your halbs in and the rams themselves counter the ballista elephant which would actually take 71 damage per hit, only needing 5 hits to be killed.
Half your list are infantry units which are not supposed to have a trash counter.
The cataphract’s whole gimmick is to not have trash counters and therefore be worse than paladins in every other aspect and the ballista elephant is a siege unit and they cant outrun halbs, so unless you have a big mass of them to kill them before they arrive, they do have a trash counter and even then you just need a view rams to garrison your halbs in and the rams themselves counter the ballista elephant which would actually take 71 damage per hit, only needing 5 hits to be killed.
The same thing applies for the mameluke, if you constantly stream an army of halbs there is nothing you can do. You cant micro for years and still the micro is painfully hard to pull out. Lets say enemy send 60 halbs for 30 mamelukes, it would take you 5 minutes to micro them while he constantly stream halbs you waste your time on the micro while you could have planned a sneak attack or micro your eco/other things.
First of all, we are talking about the Saracen unique unit - the Mameluke. It is supported by the great Saracen tech tree.
The Byzantines, Saracens and Spanish are famous for their vast tech tree.
However, unlike the other 2, Saracens have the most number of fully upgradeable units. Byz lacking Bloodlines means their Cavalry is meh. Byz lacking Blast Furnace meaning their infantry and Cavalry is meh. Byz lacking SE means their siege units except Rams are bad.
The same argument goes for Spanish Siege (except Rans). I am ignoring missing PT because of the availability of RA armor and Conquistadors.
For Saracens it is different, if you are missing something, it affects a single unit. As a result, their Knights may be bad, but otherwise stable is good. Same with Scorpions and Pikemen.
This means that Saracens have the most number of fully upgradeable units. Arbalesters, Cavalry Archers, Hussars, SR, SO and BBC are the ones which are important. Though Heavy Camels may also be used.
Even a basic composition like Hussars and Mamelukes can counter most compositions. The best thing about this is similar upgrades saving important Blacksmith and Stable work time.
Having a big tech tree doesn’t mean anything unless you have the resources. I mean If Saracens with their wide tree were any good they would have a way bigger win rate and pro would use them a lot more. They are barely used compared to other civ. Its not even a top tier civ.
