I’ve been playing a lot with Saracens these days, and I find an interesting incoherence :

Mameluks, classified as cavalry and camel unit, upgraded with cavalry armor etc, actually take damages bonus from skirms

I mean they have range, but they’re not classified as CA so why did they take extra damage ? To compare Gbetos/Throwing Axeman have range too, but are not consider as archers and don’t take bonus from skirms.

Mameluks are already one of the most gold intensive unique unit, and are already counter by halbs (37 bonus damage, in comparaison to 32 bonus damage vs regular cavalry), mass archers and onagers.

I see players complaining that Saracens lack reel camel identity, because their bonus just hit in late imp. I think making Mameluks more viable in the first place would definetly help them in that regard. Maybe even reduce their cost by 5 gold sounds fair in my opinion.

What do you think ?

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Because they need a trash counter. Thry can outmicro pikes and slaughter light cavalry.
They take a whole 4 bonus damage from skirms, on a unit that can run away, and does melee damage so its attacks aren’t hitting skirms like a wet noodle.
Thry have 130 health fully upgraded. 4 bonus damage means nothing

If thr halbs can actually get to them. And if your opponent is going mass archer why are you making mamelukes?

I agree they could he a bit cheaper but the archer armor is there for a reason


For the sake of balance reasons, they need to have a proper counter.

Camels could be a decent choice for a counter, but they can hit and run them with melee attacks.

So, the next best choice is skirms

Skirms counter Mamelukes is OK. Halbediers are bad counter against Mamelukes.
They need to reduce the cost at least 10G or 15G. Good cost comparison to Mamelukes should be Mangudai, Arambai and Conqs.

Archers are the #1 courter to mamelukes, isn’t that enough ?
I heard Viper saying they needed a nerf to their market bonus, a boost to the mameluke would be a good thing to compensate

Nerf Market would be a big nerf to Saracens. They do not have any other Eco bonus. Even buff Mamelukes won’t compensate. And Viper telling in his stream a lot that is not comparible.


I know but he seemed serious about this, and I seem to remember he wasn’t the only one

depends on the size of the nerf and the buff

He also said that Elephant Archers were bad after buff yet he latter recognized that the are now decent.

No. Because they need a trash counter.

I agree, yet pikes are their trash counter. Of course you can easily outmicro few pikes, no question about it, but in an intense head to head battle Mameluks get destroyed or you’ll take forever microying 30 halbs coming at you.

Skirms 4 bonus damages doesn’t sound like much, but in castle age Mameluks are just a little bit tougher than Conqs and Mangudai, with much less range, cost more gold, and take extra damage by TCs and towers as well. So their raiding potential is not the best either. Of course I get they could be too strong without it, but the skirms bonus isn’t very logical strictly speaking :thinking:

Moreover camels have better cost efficiency at dealing with cavalry I believe. So except in TG with infinite gold, they will never worth the investment…

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umm no, you just run away from them. besides, if your opponent is making a pike based army, they are likely backing it up with archers, and that makes me wonder why you were making mamelukes to begin with.
pikes get paired with archers, skirms get paired with cavalry.

and yet skirms do 6 bonus damage to both of those units, and only 4 to mamelukes, and mamelukes do far more damage to skirms then the other two do.

a whole extra 1 damage. simply negated by not engaging camels into arrow fire. which frankly you should be doing anyway.

yeah but mamelukes can do it from range, if you don’t see the advantage of that.

unless, as is widely recommended, they get their gold cost reduced slightly.

Pikes aren’t always paired with archers. Classic scenario : your opponnent come at you with a Knight rush, you have one castle up you respond with Mameluks. What does cavalry civs do to counter camels ? Pikes (or monks obviously). No mass archers here to begin with.

Oh ok I didn’t know about the 2 extra damages vs Cav archers. In either case even with skirms in the opponent base, mangudais and conq will do more damages.

No kidding :joy: Of course, they can survive better with their range ability but there are also the cost and the ease of production to consider.


if my opponent is coming at me with a knight rush how do i already have a castle up?

yeah but in that case the moment you see pikes you should be transitioning yourself. or more accurately you should have scouted teh transition to begin with. but then again your entire scenario is not very plausible.

the point is that mamelukes fair better vs skirms then cav archers or conqs or mangudai do. they take less damage, and deal more damage to the skirms then conqs, cav archers, or mangudai.

Mamelukes take bonus damage from skirmishers for balance reasons, simple as. Mamelukes are only held back by their cost. If Mamelukes were cheap, they be one of the best units in the game. Mamelukes burn cavalry and even do good damage to siege, since their attack is a range melee attack. The unit is basically a Franks Throwing Axeman on a horse. (in this case, a camel)

1v1, a single skirmisher will always lose to a Mameluke. Pretty much every time, unless it was hurt before hand.

Mameluke can be great in team games, since they get trade. So, no gold issues. Perhaps in 1v1, they may need to be cheaper.

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I know you’ll try to dismantled everything :joy: You really should consider a lawyer career man you can be good at it

There are so many things to consider, don’t take things literally. If you wall yourself properly you’ll have time building a castle before knights made too much damages. Also, in the better world yes you could always see transitons coming. You can still go for some archers/mameluks vs pikes/knights. Anyway.

Never say the opposite, just made a quick comparaison on raiding potential

Yes probably tho, I just find it weird from a logical perspective :thinking:

Yes of course, lot of units beat their counter in 1vs1 actually. It’s all about cost efficiency.
The point is cost efficency is the main weakness for Mameluks. Either they are too expensive, either they have too much easy counter at the moment :slight_smile:

What if they would receive a small reduction in the gold cost (10/15g).

Then for fixing the weakness vs skirms, they could lose the CA armor, and compensate that with a increase of their frame delay (now it’s pretty low at 0.4 and 0.2 for elite) so they wouldn’t be that good at micro vs pikes.

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Imperial camel killed mamelukes from this game, there is no logical reason to create them, plus the devs added frame delay to them, added extra damage to halbs vs them.

The unit is completely dead for any TG in the competitive scene, Imperial camel shouldn’t have any bonus vs them, they melt them and it doesn’t justify the cost, training time, castles to create them, simply as long as a better stable unit exist and does a better work than them being cheaper with superior economic advantage, mamelukes are not viable unless casual games, trolling but nothing serious.

Have you ever played with Mamelukes?

They are strong! Camels suppose to be the strongest counter to them that’s why Imperial Camel should win the fight. Skirms do bonus damage but Mamelukes do Melee damage so Skirms die fast as well. Though Archer units should counter Mamelukes like they counter Arambai but that is not easy at all after fully upgrade Mamelukes have 130HP, quite tanky.
They are the tankiest hit and run range unit in the game, very short attack delay but short range as balance as well. Only the high gold cost and relatively high training time slow them down.

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Well that’s significant drawbacks…

I never say they weren’t strong, they are beast that’s not the problem :slightly_smiling_face:

I was just surprised about skirms bonus in the first place. They have quite some counters, for a 85 gold unit hard to mass. (Especially before Zealotry)

Plus Saracens CA are a better option for raids, and camels are more easy to produce against cavalry. Hard to find their place in the current Meta :thinking: