Mangudai decimated

Where on earth did the thinking behind the new patch nerfs to mangudai come from?

Can I strongly urge the developers to re-think this change as it will simply make Mangudai utterly useless in 1v1 games. They already had a limited scope of usefulness (feudal - early castle) this simply removes any utility from them. The 3 pronged nerf to speed, damage and moving of shia bow limbs to imp is just too much.

They won’t even be able to make it through the armour of some units now and before were you could kite some units you won’t even be able to do that. And to top it off the cost is still the same.

I am also confused as to how the focus was on Mangudai here, Rus Horse Archers have 12 base damage, can also be massed and are incredibly hard to deal with in team games, but yet no nerfs here? In fact any unit can be massed in team games so should all be nerfed by this “logic”?

In team games, to counter the Mangudai you know what they have to do? Build a few walls and done.


I will say that Mangudai are somewhat sus to design, as their core mechanic isn’t very measurable and easily comparable to other units. Even being the worst unit in the game, it has a specific ability that can be utterly devastating in the right condition. I don’t envy whoever has to balance that.

I will say that the trackrecord for balancing unique units has been somewhat boring though. War Elephants, Grenadier, Camel Rider, Landsknecht, Great Bombard and now Mangudai–they’re all kind of overly balanced which is a shame, as in my opinion, they should be featured as stars of their own civilization and should feel powerful and worth making.


Nah they’ve been in line for a solid nerf in team games for months I’d say.


Maybe yeah, team games you can’t build walls or towers right to protect against them, is that why?

Also why not the same treatment for Rus HA, French Royal Knight or English LB. In team games en-mass they are equally devastating.


well, no unique unit in aoe4 seems worth making atm, they’re either overpriced, underpowered, combo of both
or jannisary like level of uselessness


Rus horse archers are used sparingly even in 1v1; in team games, they’re even rarer, almost unheard of in sub-conqurer level (and I assume this nerf to mangudai is mostly for lower levels). Mangudai are not comparable to rus horse archers, they’re far more devastating and with minimal mechanical and strategic skill required to execute raiding runs that can win games in an instant.

Still, they can be stopped by coordinated walling everywhere before they attack. The unwillingness of lower level players doing this is not an issue of mangudai…

Not a fan of triple nerfs, it’s almost never good, it was needed in the game’s early days due to nonexistent playtesting/balancing but devs should’ve realized by now you don’t nerf three or more aspects of the same unit in a single patch. A unit that isn’t even dominating in 1v1 at that.

The only thing preventing this from being a disaster for mongols is that they’re quite good in the meta at the moment and they’re even getting direct as well as indirect buffs. So overall I think they’re going to be fine but it’s frustrating to see their only real unique unit dumpstered like this.


And you can’t build rams or siege in team games to breach said walls?

Haven’t seen a Rus Horse Archer in months but in team games I think this largely stems from everyone playing them as a France 2.0 and spamming knights.
RK will probably be looked at in the future ig
LB are sadly slower than mangudai so therefore can’t gallop from base to base. Send anything other than villagers or spears to attack them and that will hopefully help you counter them

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I’ve certainly came across them in team games (Rus HA) and man are they strong, I’d rather come across Mangudai than them tbh! The main diff is that HA are only available Castle up so a bit longer to get a mass going.

Yeah ofc you can builds rams etc but my main point was this is usually a problem of people not protecting their base. When against a mongol oppo or French or otto, you need static defence. Why nerf the Mongol unique unit yet again? In feudal they’ve the same damage as an English vill (albeit with a higher fire rate).


dps would differ then

I’ll have to take your word on the Rus horse archers as, like I said, haven’t seen them used for months.

I actually like the changes.
The biggest change is that they won’t do as much damage against armoured units, but they should do the same amount of damage to everything else as it was described in the patch notes. That unit is devastating in team games. Once walls are down, they are free to roam, and not even horsemen can catch them. Still, I can see the devs adjusting the unit further in a future patch so it doesn’t become totally useless.


I’m fine with the damage change. They’ll do just as much to less armored units.

The speed change is too much I think.

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I mean if it was just to affect team games, can they not do if playerCount > 2 then { nerfMangudaiKEKW()} so that 1v1 is left as-is??

I think starting a precedent of units having different stats based on player count is a very bad idea.

I’ve not read the changes but I think it was probably to address mangudai at the pro level. I never thought mangudai were OP until I played two conquerer mongol players. In the hands of a pro player with excellent micro skills, their mangudai were nearly invincible. They were much more skilled than me in general, but it was seriously the most frustrating experience I’ve had in this game to date. And I was playing Abba so I had camel riders and archers but it wasn’t enough. They went double silver tree and mangudai, so they had superior economy and superior army.

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that mangudai nerf is so brutal they nearly removed the mangudai entirly if this changes gonna happen then it should cost less and it shouldnt require any gold


Mangudai hage been overtuned in teams for a looooong time; perfect example of this is teams tournament 2v2 mL and beasty vs? Cant remember… but longbow plus Mangudai could NOT be stopped and beasty eviscerated the french knights using just Mangudai…it was sickening.

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lowering their move speed is fine but if their attack is going to reduced too make them only strong against non armored units they need to cost less and their gold cost must removed


Ok so I made a tuning pack for this change that you can try out called ‘Mangudai Season 4’ and I am going to back track here.

They actually feel much the same, if anything their vill kill ability is better with the higher attack speed and they can still kite MAA, Knights and Horsemen.

So not as awful as I thought it would be earlier. Feel free to try out the tuning pack for yourself!

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Indeed! This is what the Relic balance team is ignoring and ruining unique units :frowning:


absolutely not, the whole game has no IFs, I suppose it is their ideology to not do any IFs in game balance, and it is good because it keeps the game simpler to understand