Name some more? In feudal age Mongols have S tier opening with the hunting bonus, many games I have won in feudal. You can even do 17 pop trush and get “gg” from opponent. You have great scout rush 16 or 17 pop. In dark you can do drush flush so smoothly and even pre lumber camp drush not only pre mill drush.
In castle age their CA with the 25% faster are so deadly, most of the time my wins with Mongols all-in CA play in castle age and many wins in feudal. In castle age you can also go knights like any knight civ, you can go xbows, you can go light cavs with +30% hp. In late castle/imp you have Mangudai, you have HCA, you have Drill with siege and pikes.
You need a castle and quite a few other things as mentioned above. That’s the issue with Mangudai as castle age unit as opposed to Conqs, for instance.
Yes, it is doable in certain situations, it’s not easy.
Finally, about the other options: The questions was about late game.
Mongols have lot’s of potentials in earky feudal, no doubt about that. But castle age is weak compared to other civs. Yes, you can play both x-bow and knights, but most civs do either the one or the other much better than mongols. Cav-archer all-in is possible, but it can be defended against consistently if spotted early.
There is no way to take down castle, mangudai has bonus vs sieges. Strong feudal age keep them in the game at feudal, camels,monks,town centers keep them in the game at early castle age. when they reach mid castle age they already have a castle and countinue to boom behind castle. There is no way to denay mangudai spam.
Mangudai are fast, but they can’t be everywhere at once. So you can always hit their eco or other unprotected targets while they are out of position, then, if that draws them out, strike at the Castle. By their nature as a deathball, they need to stick together, or they are a lot less effective. So they have to run after one target at a time, unless the numbers grow to the point where they can have several groups.
So you have options in the end, not only Mangudai. About what you said that most civs do either better than Mongols then how many? How many civs have better xbows or knights than Mongols in castle age? 3? 4? Between 42 civs? And again Mongols CA play alone can do anything. Mongols CA castle age play is the strongest castle age CA play in the game (except Tatars if they get Silk armor UT or Turks with Sipahi UT).
Fast Imp Arbalest/Trebs works reasonably well. While Mangudai are better than Arbs when massed and with all upgrades, you get the former much easier. Plus, you can use the archers well before to but pressure.
What are you using that is faster than a mangudai that can also threaten their town!?
Why can’t the Mongol player use smaller groups of mangudai to harass YOU. Why can’t they use some mangudai just to snipe your siege while the others harass your base? Along with hussars(that people also grossly underestimate)
So this is what I think is happening:
People play Mongols without understanding them, they blindly FC into mangudai and lose (no surprise) which lowers the civ WR
When people do actually know how to use mangudai, the cap on their effectiveness is multi tasking. Like monks. Monks are literally the best unit in the late game by miles and miles and miles, but we’re mortals so we can’t multi task fast enough to actually use this power
Mangudai aren’t as intensive to use, but their Maximum potential is limited by how well you can multitask.
Not only APM , because you need to operate multiple groups in multiple locations. If you can do this, you can beat almost anything. Including their counters. Because you best them strategically as opposed to head on.
If they at least didn’t nuke trebs, it would allow room for counterplay. Because the opponent could kill Mongol castles, forcing the Mongol to actually do something else except kite to death
It would be nice if you wouldn’t misquote others deliberately. The options argument was for late game.
Castle age is something else, there mongols can do everything in principle of course, but other civs do it better due to eco or unit boni in castle age. You really want me to list all decent archer civs and all decent knight civs, which are in their area much better then mongols? Come on…
As mentioned before, all-in with Cav archers is an option, but it’s a very risky strat that can be defended if spotted, either with skirm/siege or with defensive castles.
The point is: Mongols are good for early aggression, but have a pretty hard time in the midgame, compared to other civs. All winrate statistics with mongols confirm this. So it’s just fair that they have a strong late game.
By the way: The same holds for Magyars…
One thing to keep in mind is in TGs with closed settings, Mongols are very difficult to stop. I feel like most of the comments which are justifying Mongols are basing it upon 1v1 Arabia. Don’t let Mongols boom to late game is not a valid argument in TGs.
There are two areas where I feel Mongols late game need a nerf. Mangudai ability to kill Siege easily, and their own faster siege. So, for sake of TG balance nerf the siege bonus by 50%, and nerf siege speed and/or remove Siege Ram. What is worrying more that 60 Palas not being able to kill 60 Mangudai is SOs are countered by Mangudai. And, this is more important in TGs that 60 Palas.
Very true. I would even go a step forward and say: Everyone who complains about Mangudai: Go to the ranked ladder, play 1v1 with Mongols civ pick and try to get the unit working. You will see that it’s not that easy, and certainly Mongols are overall not very smooth to play, because transitions are a bit tricky. Again, compared to other civs like Franks or Britons.
@zeusk0g TG on closed maps is a different story, true. Although in tight areas Mangudai may not counter SO as hard as one might assume, since they pack quite tight and are vulnerable themselves quite a bit.