Mangudai problem

I would just remove all bonus vs rams…
I think ranged units countering rams just completely defies the concept of that unit.

Otherwise one unit has to be conceived as the best unit in the game. And it has always been the mangudai and should stay with the mangudai. That’s the identity of Mongols.

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No to everything, it’s a castle unit. It deserves to be awesome. Not only, it takes a long time for it to be produced in such numbers. Many units in the game is very powerful if massed.

If you want to kill this unit just make camel archers. Those are a strong counter unit.

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mongol trust gets denied ez, mongol player calls gg

u need to git gud!
ps. finemood and testslinky probably the same person on alt account, really need to git gud

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As an average TG rank 14+ player of arena, imho I don’t think a pocket Mongols can boom to late game and have enough number of Mangudai to shine. If a Mongols players want to have 60 fully upgrade Mangudai it takes around 35-37 minutes. Normally Arbalester + BBC combo visit you before 30 minutes, and Cavalier + Petard viist you around 28 minutes. I guess what I thought is justified by the win rate statistics and if this thread is talking about 10+ rank then yes Mangudai is OP but it does not need any nerf.

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The same amount of FU paladin can surely kill mangudai without any problem.

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No they cant. A little bit kite with fast firing and pathetic melee pathing, mangudais can kill paladins.

Yes especially the micro skill level between players are quite different that the paladin player don’t know when to engage and don’t know how to surround the archer unit before the fight

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Mangudai is like the 1 good thing about Mongols, nerf them and literally both their eco bonus and their tech tree are garbage.

It’s also possible to beat them although it’s normally a VERY long, VERY grindy game, you beat them by just whittling them down. You need like 20 Skirms and 3-5 Trebs to force the issue, the trade is like 8-10 Mangudai for all your Trebs which is generally worth it long-term. It is key to control extra gold spots and/or relics vs late game Mongols OR you can kill them early game, the full Mangudai composition takes A LOT to get going in Imp since you need Hussar tech, tons of farms, Elite Mangudai (expensive) and Stone to build 3+ Castles.

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Late game Mangudai even massacre Imperial Camel with little micro. Paladin actually have more chance by directly attacking opponent’s eco instead of kiting Mangudai.

Mongols Cavalry Archer is also underrated. Huns 10% discount is joke comparing to huge 25% attack speed bonus. Free house bonus is also weaker than it seems. Let’s say Mongols build 9 house in Castle Age which is 225w and lost some villager working time (75 resources presumbly).

It is total 300 resources + 10% discount like you create 36 Huns Cav Archer against 30 Mongols Cav Archer but 30 Mongol Cav Archer is stronger than 36 Huns Cav Archer (in not head-to-head fight). Mongols gains house walls in addition. In conlusion Mongols cav archer play is stronger than Huns.

I didn’t see anyone said Huns Castle Age is weak. In reverse, everyone including pro players claims Huns Castle Age is very strong but pros claims that Mongols Castle Age is weak for some reason.

Mangudai is balanced. It is fine

halb onager works nicely vs it. They only have 7 range

Early imp halb ram push is good too

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I think the same. Mongol castle age is not weak," weakest era for mongols". Huns mass cav archer bcs they dont have better option. %10 discount means 4 wood 6 gold and i agree with you hun house bonus is an another joke. Starting with -100 gold and no housewall is worst then not getting housed.
Mongol hunt bonus gives them (with 2 boars and 3 deers) more then 150 food which is better then lith bonus and people say kill mongols in early game.

ram halb push agains mangudais ? Good luck.

Portuguese 20% gold discount is stronger than Huns 10% bonus and Portuguese has this bonus for all gold units. House bonus gives 25w 25 seconds working time, but it forces to build 2 palisade wall (3 2 w 72 seconds) instead. In conclusion it gives only 19w 11 seconds working time. Palisade wall has less hp which means you have weaker defense, too. Only 20% stable bonus is left as a decent bonus. However, for some reason, Pros claims Huns is very strong civ but Mongols is bad.

I think it is about faster working stable and not get housed. When stable work %20 faster you can bring 1 extra scout to first contact and take the adventage.
Getting pop cap means you will have at least 1 less villager. 1 less villager = %5 less eco at dark age and feudal (average)

but any careful player can avoid getting housed. Also Mongols and Lithuanians reach Feudal and stable, and produce Scout early thanks to eco bonuses they have. 20% faster working stable is only redeemble bonus for Huns it seems.

Mongols and lithunanians already op civs,that is why they are so popular in tournaments. Both of them dont have a proper ut but they still get picken often.

Huns is actually picked more often than Mongols. Lithuanians is most common among this 3 but it has lower winrate comparing to its theoretical strength. Lithuanians is insane in theory despite bad UTs but it underperform in tournaments. Pros have difficulty to unleash real strength of civs in my opinion.

I haven’t read most of this thread but;
Aren’t there many late imp compositions that can beat a mangudai army?

  • Elephant Archer army
  • Tatar HCA army
  • War Elephant army
  • Balista Elephant army (not certain because it’s siege, but I expect it’d do well)
  • Battle Elephant army
  • Huscarl spam (can’t kill the central mangudai mass, but can kill everything the mangudai player isn’t looking at)
  • Camel Archer army
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I am not sure but tatar hca cant kill mangudai,camel archer already get picket to counter mangudais. Other units can catch mangudais to kill.

If it’s only about catching them, surely Shrivamsha riders are the most OP units in the game. No-one can catch them, since they’re the fastest :wink:

I’m pretty sure mangudai can’t kill EA either. And I was making a point by listing all the elephant units.

What are you basing on that Tatar HCA can’t kill mangudai? Afaik, they have 7 pierce armour to the mangudai’s 4, 1 less attack, a slightly slower attack rate, and they’re cheaper and easier to produce. They should win handily. Only against siege mangudai are better.

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