Mangudai problem

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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If you remember anything about what I’ve said about Mangudai in the past, I still stand by it. Unpacked Trebs should get -2 melee armor, but +2 siege armor, which will reduce the Elite Mangudai’s damage against trebs from 5 to 3, and very, very barely affect the survivability of trebs otherwise.

The Mangudai is a strong unit, but it’s fine. The problem is you can’t kill the castles the Mongols make to limit the Mangudai production because no siege units work to properly assail Mongol Castles so long as the Mangudai exists in it’s current state. Not being able to kill the Mongol castle is the problem, not the Mangudai.

Modifying the trebuchet armor numbers helps to nerf the Mangudai without reducing the Mangudai’s Anti-siege bonuses, which is a much more severe nerf.

For the record, I think the movement speed nerf was still unnecessary and poorly targeted. I still don’t care if they are given the speed back, as it makes absolutely no difference, which is why it was poorly targeted then. I just wish we weren’t now having to nerf the Mangudai again because we failed to address it properly the first time.

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After the nerf halb onager works nicely vs it

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Do you realize before the speed nerf Mangudai was moving the same speed as Camels? with the nerf means they now are slower vs Camels, so Camels now have a chance to deal with it.

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I totally understand what the speed nerf did.

I’m just telling you that what it did, strictly speaking, isn’t important. The fact that Camels are faster than Mangudai now, is largely irrelevant. Camels do not dive castles to kill Mangudai, and when they do, they look silly and die for the trouble. Camels do not raid as efficiently as Mangudai do. Mangudai are better defenders, better attackers, and strictly a better investment of resources than Camels are. Changing the MS of Mangudai doesn’t change that.

This is the problem every person has with the unit. You think that since the Camel can engage, they can deal with the Mangudai on paper. Now, I want you to take that assertion, and step back a second. Think about how melee units (even fast ones) fare against massed archer units without mobility in every other facet of AOE2. Now realize you are actively arguing that because the Mangudai, one of the most microable units in the entire game has just been slowed to be .05 units slower than the Camel, that the Camel is suddenly going to have a good engagement against Mangudai.

Sound silly yet?

Camels kill Mangudai the same way they do now compared to how they were able to kill them before: When they are forced to engage. So long as the Mongol can kite around the castle, and one-shot Trebuchets, it’s a pretty hard thing to make them do, and it’s not efficient resource-wise to try. What’s even more disheartening is when they split off 20 mangudai to raid, killing 35 villagers and forcing you to respond, and even if you push, the 40 mangudai that’s left at the castle can still one-tap your Trebuchet and run.

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The only real answer to mangudai is mass siege onagers, and they need to be microed well to boot, as well as accompanied by halbs to counter any diving scouts. I suggest to use sapper villagers as the siege of choice, rather than trebs/rams or even bombard canons - just halbs, siege onagers and sapper villagers, and maybe the very rare single treb just for the sake of a lure if they’re hiding around a castle. And yes, mongol siege is the real threat beyond that with their faster siege onagers, which may be dealt with, but generally by separating your onagers to fight any of his with one or two of yours at a time - honestly the main nerf I would give to mongols is this- remove siege onagers from mongols to allow for a slight weakness to their only real counter, unless we’re counting Britton longbows in the equation, which will generally increase their weakness to Britons further, but then again their faster siege onagers or rather.onagers post nerf will generally already help - not to mention their siege rams which are a heavy counter to archers that aren’t microed.

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Heavy Scorpion also win in equal resource. It die fast to mangudai but mangudai get very hurt too.

Just encounter a 1800 rank Mongols player. The set up of this game is that Mongols is pocket Arena Team Game 3v3 which allow Mongols to free bloom until enough number of fully upgrade Elite Mangudai. I try to use Halberdier to zone Mangudai out and then use Houfnice to force engage. Halberdier + Houfnice is not the best counter of Mongols but I think it is the best composition that can play against late game Mangudai as Bohemians.

If the 1800 Mongols player can split Mangudai into 6 group of 10 and #### my Houfnice one by one then it would be bad for me. But I rarely encounter this kind of player so I won’t discuss here (just encounter once as jibatong but I don’t think much people will use this trick)

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Halb ram early imp push if done right hits too fast for mangudai to be massed in troubling numbers

If you cant beat a unit you can beat their civ timing

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I suggest individually hotkeying the houfnice to each hotkey up to 10 and have a mouse hotkey for attack ground - followed by rapidly attacking where the mangudai change directions to

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Consider that If I have this micro skill and my opponent have the same micro level, I think mangudai will win this fight with Flank Formation in 10 sub group.

In real game after feeding 2 to 3 wave of Hal with Staggered Formation to Mangudai while pushing with Houfnice, opponent will need to choose whether go for Houfnice or stay back and clear more wave of Hal. And that is the time when Houfnice land a critical hit on mangudai

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Mongols/Mangudai are fine imo.

In 1v1 you rarely get to post imp and straight Mangudai is really hard to pull off, at least on open maps. Castle is expensive an gives a worse short term return on investment than lets say Conqs or Plumes.

If you let the Mongol player go post imp 1v1 probably something went wrong during the 40 mins before :slight_smile:

In team game open maps they are sub-par to the Archer-Kight meta. Believe me I know, I’ve tried to make Mongols work in team games (as flank) for two years now and its just so much easier to go Britons/Mayans/Ethiopians etc straight archers.

In team game closed maps I give a credit. I’ve you have full Mangudai-Hussar-SO with 60 Trade carts after a one hour Michi game, you are pretty much unstoppable. But then again if you have 60 Hufnice or 120 Longbows you might be in similar trouble.

Mongols have worked fine for almost a quarter century with many strengths and weaknesses. I would be against changing the Manguidai which is really their identity unit.

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Is this the problem with everyone here? Still the same issue. You exaggerate what we’re saying and then disagree with it?

Nerfing their damage Vs trebs doesn’t change Mongol identity. It just forces Mongols to be a little more creative with dealing with trebs instead of this brain dead on shot sniping

Is it really? Or is it that you just don’t have the multi tasking to do it? It doesn’t make you a bad person, it doesn’t even make you a bad aoe2 player

Easier = stronger now? Harder civs are weaker? :thinking: Since when is that true? By this logic Chinese need a buff.

CA civs need a buff, where are all the knight nerfs? Monks need a buff! If monks aren’t harder to use than other units, I must be the king of America.

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Exactly this.

I’m not always good at explaining what I mean or understand, so it’s easier to refer to someone else that expressed it well

This. I knew someone had given a good explanation somewhere but couldn’t remember who or where

This is my way of saying it, because I couldn’t remember the method :rofl:

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Well decide if you want an open discussion on the issue. If counter arguments are not allowed, name the thread accordingly. I don’t mind if we disagree, but lets keep it on the subject not on me being a “bad person” or not.

Assuming both sides of the argument are welcome, I just don’t feel Mangudai are OP with in the overall Mongol civ design.

To your questions:
Yes, Mangudai is hard to pull off. You are investing resources in a castle that your opponent may invest into army if he/she scouts you well enough. And a handful of unupgraded castle age Mangudai arent gonna cut it. It is a late game unit as so many have stressed before me. They just need too much upgrades to get going. Compare to the Conq. He’s top tier right out the castle.

And also yes, straight archer (or MAA archer) is easier than Scouts into Archers into Mangudai because there are two switches involved while the Briton/Mayan/Ethiopian player only has to add a siege and trash unit mid-imp! If you go straight Archer-Mangudai you just fall behind literally every Archer civ

I’m not saying its impossible, and if you manage it its a strong play. Maybe my skills arent good enough to pull of Mangudai consistently.
Yet, if you do manage to pull it off and not killed in the Mongol’s below-average castle age, shouldnt you be rewarded by being able to play around with an awesome unit?

Same with Goths late game spam. Its hard to get there (at least on open maps), but if you do, you should be rewarded by 100+Huskarls. And there are many late game power houses like this, which imo shouldn’t be nerved either.

And yes, Archer-Knights are meta in team games. Devs are pushing a bit towards infantry and UUs. Nerving UUs like Mangudai in this regard would only enforce Archer-Knight meta.

To your comments on the Chinese. They are one of the hardest Civs to play for low ELO players (like me) because of the start. Their win rate then goes up with higher ELO brackets, indicating that they are a good civ, just hard to play. No buff needed imo, just practice.

(Btw, I’m assuming equally skilled opponents in (1v1) ranked lobby, which the game balance is aimed at.)

Take care

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They should get -1 attack, 12 damage is too much for a unit that can also deal easily with siege ram (and other siege units)

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Then is basically a heavy cav archer with attack vssiege

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GAHHHHHH CAN’T FIGURE OUT WAY TO BEAT 60 MANGUDAI, SENSORY OVERLOAD, DOES NOT COMPUTE…[ALT F4] GG no RE.

Just because YOU can’t find a way to beat massed Mangudai does not make it impossible, just really really really hard. And it certainly doesn’t justify nerfing the unit either because in your view it’s OP.

Maybe the answer isn’t to figure out a way to deal with the Mangudai, but force the player with Mangudai to deal with YOU. Split up your Paladins into 3 groups and raid different parts of the enemy’s economy. That group of 60 can’t be in all 3 places at once. When he sends his Mangs to deal with a group of your paladins, the other 2 groups are still dealing damage to his eco. By the time he’s done dealing with your other 2 mini-raids, you’ve already bought yourself enough time to build up another army to conduct another raid or push in front.

This group of 60 mangudai are only effective if they stay in their group of 60. Force the enemy to constantly chase after you instead of the other way around. That’s my take on it, good luck sir.

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Another viper appeared. 11

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Why do you feel the need to sarcastically mock anyone who offers actual suggestions?

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  • Mongols can split 60 Mangudai into 3 groups. 20 Mangudai still beat 15 Paladin with TC and Castle support, you don’t need to stack 60 Mangudai into 1 group. You only need micro.
  • Only 25% of civs have Paladin and Paladin upgrades are expensive than Mangudai. I only recommend Paladin if you have early eco lead and want to finish enemy before gaining 35+ Elite Mangudai.

When you lost 45 Paladin in one raid, it remains very little eco in your hands. You can’t 45 Paladin again. I think this tactic is bad. It has winning chance but when first Paladin raid fail, you lose game 80% before mustering new army.

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Yes. You know. All three distinct and open parts of the economy that people have. Walls don’t exist. Fortifications (especially for a civ that would prefer their castles in defensive positions so as to safeguard them as a crucial production building) are never around to secure resources. We can also be sure that in a world where your paladins go to raid, your enemy cannot raid you in return because you are smart and enemy is dum-dum and you have walls. So your opponent certainly has no choice but to run their entire army back into their base and handle your paladins that you definitely have access to. Also, if they don’t, you can snipe TC’s or something, which the Mongols can’t do because Mongol Siege is absolutely garbage and nobody uses it.

You must be new here. Let me give you the tour. I want to nerf the Mongol Castle. I don’t think the Mangudai is broken. The Mongol castle is the heartbeat of the Mongol army. So long as the castles are up, the Mongols have a pretty strong fighting chance, simply because killing the castles is so incredibly difficult because it produces a unit that kills all siege.

I’ve said on multiple occasions that I think the way the Mangudai was nerfed was a mistake. I didn’t think the Mangudai needed a nerf. Let me say it again. The Mangudai doesn’t need a nerf. Got it? Good. Let’s continue. If we changed the armor on the unpacked treb to slightly resist the Mangudai’s anti-siege damage, it’d make the Trebuchet, a non-unique unit a slightly more feasible unit for killing castles. As in, per my suggestion exactly, it’d take 50 Mangudai to one-shot an unpacked treb (instead of 30, as it currently does) which gives every civ, especially those that lack an obvious direct counter (like camel archers) an actual avenue to kill the Castle that is making the Mangudai.