i was avoiding this topic but wow the mexico mains just appear as soon as any nerfs are suggested
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Because its theme is that of a lancer that can hold its own against cav, not an hussar that have some bonus vs infantry, it must be effective against infantry that is what it is at its core, the problem lie with how it deal with cav, not infantry
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Chinacos were never intended to be good against cav, not heavy infantry⊠They are lancers at their core, they are lancers in how they behave and they are lancers in design⊠Just not super specilized lancer and more versatile⊠You mentioned naginata, yes, they are very similar but japan having broken or simply better version of other units is nothing newâŠ
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look ill just say it, the way Chinacos are made is just stupid. if youâre gonna give a unit a multiplier against nearly every single unit⊠just give it higher base damage and not make it so complicated.
Or to put it another way, hussars have 10 base dmg, 3x vs cavalry, 3x vs all infantry, 3x vs artillery, 3x vs vills, 3x vs pets, etc.
Chinacos would be less convoluted if they just had a better base attack and way less focus on random multipliers against most things. Axe riders and Chinacos are essentially identical in role, but axe riders have just 1 penalty and Chinacos have multiple multipliers to get the same end result. I blame TAD asian cav for giving us this terrible system of cav multis.
(ignore the charged abilities, etc.)
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But non-Spanish âLancersâ were always terrible against Heavy Infantry, even worse then Hussars. This has been a consistent theme throughout the game. They only have a high mult against Light Infantry since their x0.67 mult against Heavy Infantry nulifies the x1.5 towards infantry, plus having lower base attack and health than a Hussar. This happens with Nagi Riders even after they get Bloody Harvest (they get their mult against Heavy Inf from x0.67 to x0.4).
They are soooo broken that Japan is now a low to low-mid tier civ at best. WaitâŠ
while weâre on this topic can we please bring up how positively frustrating it is that humbaraçi are unkillable by asian cav because of the multiple contradicting roles and tags the unit has
Iâm not a Mexico main, lol.
I will be pendantic and say rifle riders.
if you want hand cav that counters heavy cav then hakkapelit and also the berber camels
and they have had Caballeros the moment mexico came out, so saying they are Never is a terrible argument
yes and chinaco has broken that trend, so you are going to going to have to make a compromise on the unit.
I would rather it keep the more spanish lancer theme cause you know spain and mexico and all the stuff surround that
so in this scenario they would be dealing less then their base damage against heavy infantry until caballeros (1.5x0.5 =0.75) and still be doing excess damage after it (2.5x0.5=1.25). That changes nothing and if anything makes it needlessly worse
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After Caballeros, with the x0.5 mult, it makes them do the same damage as British Hussars against Heavy Infantry while having way less HP. But if you still have an issue with this, you can always reduce the base to 0.4. Why does it matter that theyâll do less then their base damage against Heavy Infantry before the Card, anyway?
At least youâre honest.
I said Heavy Cav that counters Hand Cav so no, these 2 donât count.
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i mean talk about breaking design existing design, that breaks design more then anything else we have mentioned so far.
also with the chinaco dealing 18 damage to heavy infantry before armour would make mexico particularly dead to a musk push since their skirms are so expensive and also have lower multi against heavy
you want mexico to have a weakness, not for it t to be dead
after checking the files the jaggelion shock rider still have the hand cav multi in their charge attack so there is that
Lol, does the Axe Rider having a x0.5 mult against Light Cav also âbreak designâ (whatever this bs means)?
They cost 10 extra food anf 5 less coin then a Skirm. Also, they have the same multi against heavy inf as a normal skirm, with a higher base damage and lower range (is this last part what you meant?).
Iâd also say it was a mistake to introduce hand cavalry and hand infantry as multiplier tags. 99% of the time thereâs no difference between these units and heavy cavalry or heavy infantry and itâs just adding unnecessary complexity.
nope my mistake i rember it having a 1.75 nulti
i mean yes, you will also hear a bunch of people talk about how lakota breaks a bunch of design, infamously with the rifle rider that required the workaround of it also being also a heavy cav
the axe rider needed that or the war chief faster speed allowed them to counter their counters
so if you want to break the design, you better have a good reason for it. making a lancer cav unit do less then base damage against heavy infantry for the purpose of keeping another part of the unit and then requires another tech just to bring it up to par with normal cav, is frankly convoluted.
it will still have extra range, good pathing, extra speed and even splash in a charge attack. those are more then enough to make them on par with other hand cav
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Wonders are suppoused to be strong, important parts of the colony. They shouldnt be rebuildable. They are clear objectives that change the tide of a battle. The best example are shogunate, Karni or Golden Pavillion.
Devs wanted to boost it but it seemed too strong to get 15% bonus as it would be as getting market techs (while a lot of civs get economic theory in age 1 for all map, so I dont get the complains) so, they went back. To maximize it you need a good placement of resources, not so easy sometimes.
Then, why dont change it to scale over ages or to have a greater effect on agriculture?
the problem is the charge attack + caballeros, that combination makes chinacos insane
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yeah, thats the best way
Thatâs not the only thing thatâs OP about them. Their eco in this latest patch is almost on par with Swedenâs pre-patch eco but with better military to boot. In Supremacy, Mexico is reigning supreme through and through.
S Tier thanks to unnecessary buffs, in this order, in Supremacy:
Mexico
China
Sweden
USA/India/Japan (tied)
Italy
Aztec
Ottomans
A Tier (in no particular order):
British/Germans/French/Dutch/Spain/Ethiopia/Hausa/Lakota/Haud/Inca
B Tier:
Portuguese
D Tier thanks to unnecessary nerfs, significantly difficult against against A Tier and almost no chance against S Tier, in this order:
Russia
Malta
You know why we hardly have any posts calling out Mexico for being OP? Because they fare decently against the other S tier civs, of which there happen to be many of and are fan favorites.
Mexico especially needs the nerfs I suggested.
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This topic is so misleading Mexico is not S+ tier at all . It seems that you might have skill issue when dealing with aggressive civs. China will be always China once they get their swarm itâs always hard to take/win fights convincingly but itâs not S+ tier just S . Italy is prolly S++ tier atm and needs nerf than anything.
Malta is currently S+ tier with the broken Fixed gun which outranges culverin has more hp that it takes 8 culv shots to take it down and they do damage which bring gendarmes (heavy cav ) to half hp seems very balanced right? lol. They can just camp at base spamming fixed guns along with heavy fortifications and dragging the game unnecessarily.
If you want further proof do you remember Bow Enjoyer from ranked 1v1 ladder(kaiserklein) he went rank 2 with just making xbows/pikes strategy they get more hp than normal xbow/pike composition because of 2% hp bonus per card & their culvs too have higher hp than enemy artillery hence winning the fight always . So please donât complain other civs being OP while malta itself has already good things to them.
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S Tier
Sweden (has 56% win rate over the top half of the ladder)
Italy
China
Malta
Ottomans
Spain
A Tier (in no particular order):
British/Germans/French/Dutch/Ethiopia/Hausa/Haud/Inca /India/Japan/Ports/Mexico
B Tier:
Portuguese /Lakota
D Tier :
Russia /Aztecs
This should be the somewhat correct list im sure most the community and pro players would agree with S tier civs the rest of the civs can be changing based on their experience but you putting Malta at D is just wrong while itâs aztecs & Russia.
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Statistics about games clearly show this is not true (48% winrate at 1100+, 48% winrate at 1250+, 48% winrate at 1400+, no data for 1600+ about winrate, but the score is higher than the other elos, although score doesnât mean much, and i doubt that you are 1600+ player seeing your complaints and your suggestions)
Again, statistics shown this not being true, malta and russia are roughly around the same place as mexico for winrate (with malta being considered quite high by pro players and russia being mid ground too)
Because they are mostly balanced outside of specific builds that are indeed quite broken, and which can be tweaked without butchering the civ like your suggestions would do
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