forgetting that this is besides the point we were talking about, you do know that mexico can spawn chinacos from haciendas at like a fairly efficient rate and also utilise livestock right?
they also dont need map control for this
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I prefer to not commentâŠ
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And weâve demonstrated that the best possible Hussars lose to Chinacos. So itâs not situational, if they can beat the best they can beat the rest.
Having one counter doesnât make them not OP. Every other unit in the game has at least 2 counters.
To make them reasonably balanced they need to either lose the x1.25 vs hand cav, or have their cost increased.
3 Likes
Updating the original post since this got a lot of traction since. Also adding a fresh response here:
Russia:
- Revert Boyars Nerf
- Decrease villager build time by 1 second
Why:
Russia has been hit by another round of nerfs even though they were underperforming at medium to high levels of play, especially with their dependency on Strelsy which now perform even worse against cavalry. Their Age III despite recent changes still underperforms compared to other civs. They just need a very small buff to make them fair.
Malta:
- Revert 2% XP Requirement nerf
- Revert Wignacourt Nerf
- Upgrade Auberges card to also reduce the train time of Commandery units by 5%
- Upgrade Flintlock Rockets card to increase Sentinel stats by 55% and increase their cost by 35%
Why:
Malta has never âoverperformedâ since their release. Although they can be strong most of their strategies revolve around gimicks and they were mediocre at absolute best. With at least 4 fresh nerfs (Steel Bolts, X-bows weaker against hand cav, Wignacourt, XP Nerf), half of these should at least be reversed. A small buff to their late-game also much-needed with the permanent xbow nerfs and existence of 1 factory.
Mexico:
- Reduce starting food crates by 50f
- Reduce Chinaco base attack by 1 and base HP by 5
- Reduce Soldado base siege attack by 2
- Reduce Soldado melee armor to 20%
Why:
The forward Hacienda for rush + 5 villagers sets up an incredible non-stop rush with a huge eco behind it like no other civ. Combined with a full roster of units in age 2, the momentum is too much too early. Chinaco needs a small nerf overall to their base stats and the entire civ overperforms in treaty to boot. Soldados overperform for their cost and especially late-game (including treaty). Even an insurgent rush feels as oppressive as Swedenâs pre-patch church Halberdier rush, all thanks to Mexicoâs eco + momentum.
China:
- Increase cost of village by 5w.
Why:
The TP + Tea Export card start especially is still too powerful. The new meta is to ally with France first, then Germany for the trickles. Can very safely FF with a huge eco to boot and is very hard to stop due to the incredible momentum. Theyâve been hit by several nerfs in recent patches but one more small nerf - this time to their village cost - should be all thatâs needed to make them balanced.
USA:
Reduce starting food crates by 50f.
Why:
The recent decrease in cost for the French and Dutch Immigrant cards made all such builds significantly faster. A reduction of 50f will slightly (but not entirely) offset these changes which were too great.
India:
Reduce starting food crates by 50f
Why:
Still an overperforming civ overall. While sepoys were rightfully nerfed, rajputs were overbuffed to compensate. Their inclusion of a full Age 2 Roster combined with updates to the game mechanics over the last year continue to make them too strong too quickly. Reducing starting food like was done with France and Dutch in previous patches should balance them once and for all.
Hausa:
- Reduce Fulani Archer HP by 5.
Why:
Hausa currently stands as a sleeper extremely strong civ especially if the player is smart and opts to stay in age 2. Thereâs no reason Fulani archers should have the stats that they do for their cost and need a small nerf to keep them in check.
I strongly disagree with most of these suggestions that Iâm familiar enough with to make a judgment on. These changes were made for a reason, donât just suggest reverting everything. You may be right about some of their strength/weaknesses, but they can get buffed/nerfed in ways other than just undoing all changes.
3 Likes
Several nerfs and people still complaint?? Sepoys arent that strong, jannisaries existâŠ
Its ridicoulous the fact of having 5 cards for army training (2 inf + Cav + Eles + Sepoys) and still needing Green jackets to get bonus vs HI for just a single unit.
Meanwhile Karni Mata is the worst economic aura in the game as its map restricted, strong as economic theory (age1 card), and can be countered. Just a meme.
And finally, Victory TowerâŠI doubt anyone uses it if not for wood crates. Having it or not to, wont change anything
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Disagree, finally, we get an almost decent Fulani archer in a treaty, no sense to get nerfed now. The problem with chinacos is their charge attack and the multiplier the changes u propose donât balance the unit. Sentinels need to be 1 pop in treaty, maybe is the only way to get a decent malta.
Thatâs why I donât understand why this type of building cannot be rebuilt.
You can still counter Chinacos with both Heavy Infantry and Light Cavalry? I donât understand why do you people complain that Hussars lose against Chinacos: in the unit description they say that the Chinaco âholds its own against cavalryâ. All you need to do to balance it is change the x0.67 multiplier against Heavy Infantry to x0.5 and nerf their range a bit (0,25 or 0,5) but other than that, I donât see a need for extra nerfs.
And while Chinacos and Nagi Riders are abstractlancer, they are far from being close to the Spanish Unique Unit, so I donât understand why people want them to be countered by Hussars.
Chinacos have a x1.5 base mult against Infantry, true but, unlike Lancers, they also have a x0.67 mult against Heavy Infantry (so 1.5 x 0.67 = 1), while Spanish Lancers get a flat x3 mult against Infantry and no other mult.
The problem comes after Caballeros, since the added mult becomes a too big.
They can be contered by goons yes, but not so well by heavy infantry, and holding his own doesnât mean it should be able to trade effectively with the best hussar in the game fully buffed⊠Holding its own should mean it can do more damage than lancer against cav, even going close to kill cav, but falling short on that, instead it can do all that and be also effective against infantry⊠As they are now there is no reason to go goons for mexicans because the chinacos are simply too good against other cavâŠ
You are also wrong on them not being lancers, they are armed with a lance in their description, their compandium entry is also about them being lancers and they have the lancer tag, so yes, they are lancers, but lancers that also do more damage than ususal to cav, and currently they do more damage than normal hussars do to other hussars.
Changing their multi from hand cav to heavy cav is buffing them, which isnât what it should be done in the slightest⊠I suggested reducing their multi against hand cav to 1.2 instead of 1.25, this would make them do the same damage hussars do to hand cav, this would also mean that a chinaco would come close to kill a hussar but not kill quite realiably, which mean it hold its own, but it is not a favourable trade
The problem is Caballeros but considering the way the devs have designed the Spanish mexico decks (they use the same cards), they are not going to change that without also nerfing spain along the way.
So they effectively counter heavy infantry as well.
They fall into the class that is listed in the game as abstractlancer, thats why they are affected by Caballeros
so if you cant change the Caballeros they need another weakness and like spanish lancers they should not trade well against normal heavy cav but due to the multi, the range, and presidal lancers they wipe the floor with them as well.
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Its as easy as bacome caballeros card into asian equivalents, keeping HI multiplier in 1.
you canât do that without also messing with the spanish lancers or just like adding random clauses to th card.
its easier just to make it counterable by heavy cav tbh
edit: it also affects a bunch of random natives and mercs which is less important for spain and mex but could still be impactful
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It would be like Tokala soldiers and Skull Knights with School cards
not really those affect particular units, caballeros affects an entire class of unit, its basically an universal card.
like it also affects bosniaks, elmeti, jat lancer, Qizilbash (bugged), yoruba eso rider.
other lancers also include naginata, sowar, mahout but spain/mexico is never getting those. Though if you play unknown and get the dojo you can also get naginata with caballeros
you can make it just affect spanish lancer and chinaco but I think the devs will only do that as a last resort, they will try every other trick in the book before doing that
That is why I said that reducing their multiplier against Heavy Infantry from x0.67 to x0.5 is an actual good idea for nerfing them. After Caballeros they would get a total of x1.25 (2.5x0.5), which would allow them to deal about the same damage to HI as a British Hussar, while having less Hp.
I didnât mention in the original, but I would be fine with a nerf to their range of 2.75 to something like 2.5 or even 2.25.
I actually didnât fully know what the hand cavalry tag meant, so I concede this point.
This, however, I believe to be a bad idea. The whole point of the unit, if you watched the official intro of the civ on youtube, is that itâs a Heavy Cavalry unit that can be a light counter to Hand Cav. Remove this and what do you have? You have a Heavy Cavalry unit that has 30 less base health and 5 less base attack than a Hussar, 10 less base health and 3 less base attack than a Naginata Rider (and 10% less Ranged Resist) and, to top it all off, takes 3 more seconds to train for some range and, basically, the same price. Does that sound fair to you?
i mean when it first came out the multiplier was against all cav, so the point of the unit is not that essential.
Its still a cav that have extra 1 range, becomes 2 with greath pathing with tech and gets a charge atttacks that melts infantry and cav alike, net 1.65 multi against heavy infantry and 2.5 against other infantry and also faster then other hand cav
it has a list of advantages and will be plenty competitive if it losses a bit against heavy cav
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But why does it have to be against heavy cav instead of heavy infantry? You are just asking to make the unit more generic with this.
cause otherwise we are messing with the Caballeros card, which is a lot more difficult to change based on how its connected the the Spanish lancer
and im not sure how it being weak to heavy cav but not heavy infantry makes it more generic?
there are more cav that are weak to heavy infantry then cav that are weak to cav
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You are not messing with the Caballeros card if you reduce the base mult of Chinacos against Heavy Inf to 0.5.
How many Heavy cav units do you know that have a mult against Hand Cav? Iâll wait. Chinacos were NEVER intended to be good against Heavy Inf.