People complain about India being OP on supremacy and weak on treaty. While there are 3 techs available. In my opinion we can remove azaps or minutemen for something for lategame.
It would be good for both modes.
India is only stronger than usual because of the recent buff to the Rajputs, and the Azaps addition (both of which will most likely receive slight nerfs soon). We desperately require a clutch minutemen to have any chance of dealing with ff timings.
Honestly imho the only “broken” civs are italy and otto. The thing is tho, if you nerf them all thr other overtuned stuff kicks in. Ideally if you wanted to jerf youd have to anticipate this and so the a tier civs might get a whack with the nerf bat so its not just a repeat. If say
Italy
Reduce multiple architects building speed. Reduce lombard res cards to 800 age2, 1200 age3, 2500 wood or remove the 700crates age2 and say 1k wood in age3. Somethings got to give here yo force map interaction a bit. Also the skirms O think make guard free but have to research. Should allow counterplay.
Otto
Phew everything’s crazy here tbh but their eco still vunerable. I say easier to let them have good units but kneecap the eco- TC 600w now. Then militia only do .8 to heavy cav and fr needs to be .1 vs vills plz. and church cant overpop or50% slower to research. Lastly abus reduce dmg by 10% base. Or 5%. Abus just way too good in every mode right now
Other mentions for nerfs
Fixed guns to 33 range age3 39 age4. Maybe imp let it be 6 pop as trade.
Transcendence not work on militia
Chevelaguers do .8 to skirms in melee
French royal musk pistol .5 vs vills
Mexico baja annexation full price
Mexico Central america loose 2 culvs or 3 tower only age2 not age3 for free. Piki goes .8 to skirms
Haude aenna only 33% dps boost, prob should be 25%
Usa california reduce settler spawn speed (seriously or charge it mosque tech wood eq of pike 300)
Ethopia shotels 1.5 attack speed and a bit lower dps. Their idle heal is slower. Abuns less.hp.
India looses azap for 5 jan, nornal militia. Team flail elephants 150f not team anymore. Agra takes extea damage while building (shouldnt be too bad just enough to get a decent chunk
Conquistadors loose aoe damage
Buffs
Russian BH take less damage while building
Malta sent age4 card is only 10% stat boost but makes them 1 pop.
Huaraca light shock infanty, 10% more dmg but less.multiplyr vs infantry for guard
Usa extra crate in an age 2 slot or a 2x crate to help them when forced to be stuck. Maybe even a single 800w crate
These are to me pretty easy changes that can shake up meta boogeymen and not create too much chaos till next major content updates. Imho
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There should be other options. Why regulars and sentinels dont work?? They are the asian equivalent while Japan and China dont have minuteman neither.
japan is a boom civ that plays defensively so they dont need the militia to defend
china has a lot of unit shipments and age up options such as the blockhouse, aging with confucian academy and unit pops that helps with defense
india in supremacy has 2 main play - agra map control or in base eco with the karni marta
in the case of the karni you are acutely vulnerable to a timing attack, as indian eco ramps slower then japan and unit shipment doesnt swing as hard as china.
5 rajputs, 5 sepoy or 4 sowars aint cutting it
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Some players go defensively by Agra in base. The change would weaken India a bit after so many players complaints saying it is OP on every age.
Now I dont understand y’all
go agra in base is considered pretty bad iirc
the agra is good because its a beefy forward that allows you to pressure the opponent for free as an age up
doing it in base means you give up all map control and unless you can be active and raid (good luck doing that with sowars) your opponent can just ignore you and boom, in which case good luck catching up since you gave up the karni age up and dont have vil shipments
the agra is good because of how its used most of time, not because its just purely good.
the current situation is considered op because before the minuteman was not something you can use to leverage in a counterpush
but with the recent change to otto that can happen
- the otto minuteman can raid vils due to lacking multipliers and it had multi against heavy so it kills any heavy infantry push so easily that india doesnt need to do anything else
- the azap dont lose hp so after defending a push they can just become part of your army and they also shadow tech so their power never goes down
basically india needs a defensive option that doesnt that doesnt allow for counter pushing.
maybe to copy the russian consulate india could get 2 tower wagons and unlock outpost to build to have defenses or something
edit : also a weird quirk of indian BO is that you almost always age up with 1 vil on the wonder and do it kinda early. so its kinda up to the opponent to respond, meaning you either have to be active or the opponent can just counter play you
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i think the issue of agra is mostly prominent in 2v2 or 3v3, where india dictates the entire pace of the early game in a manner that is quite silly and unparralelled by other civs. you instantly win the forward base game. there is literally 0 counterplay to this sans a really lucky pokemon army from native explorers in age1 sniping vill. having 1 or 2 vills build it up quicker than most civs and unable to be stopped simply forces opponents to respond, which even in 1v1 is rough for many civs and partly why india is loved in high level because you consistenly remove many civs ability to play how they want. ofc, this isnt inherently op and india i dont think is as op as many civs, but is it pretty lame to FB and have to scout perfectly sicne if india did, gg to you because you didnt play perfectly whereas india now has 5k bunker and many options no matter how badly placed. Every other civ that gets ballsy with their FB you can put some damage on it to punish it a bit, hell russia BH currently can loose 2/3 hp to just explorer plus nat when built with 2-3 vills. India suffers none of the downsides of putting an literall minifort on the opponents face. In 2v2 its even worse, as the momentum loss of civ selection means many civ combos are just toast. Just giving it some extra damage while being built 1- forces india to commit extra 2-3 vills really forward like any other civ in the game (cept travois which can be snared and do take a chunk of damage) and gvies some civs something to do when they discover an 5k hp building is on their 3rd and only hunt. if it took just 300% or so like every other building while being built, itd still have aroughly 4k hp if nuked by explorer while being built by 1 vill fwiw. I think small changes like this just give opponents more options while still keeping the identiy of the civ, increasing overall strategy while not killing forward agra play
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Russia needs a buff to their boyars, they seem to be the worst civ in the game atm.
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They have castle travois shipments that upgrade them while you can build more cheaper than other civs thanks to mughal architecture. Less effective than minutman? Maybe, but thats the point, to weaken India as everybody complains about it. I prefer these kind of changes to nerf patch after patch sepoys, that arent that strong.
There will be a FF?? Then try to avoid it or change the strategy to other one. Every civ has weak points indeed.
Nobody uses castle travois and Mughal architecture in a supremacy game at a decent level, at least not the standard builds. Those are treaty/late team/troll builds.
Just by popping minutemen, you’re not going to negate an enemy’s ff timing. That would be stupidly overpowered. The minutemen are simply a tool to give you a fighting chance to deal with the timing/counter-attacking push. This is also why ff civs like China, Spain, Otto, etc usually have a favorable matchup against India.
Oh, India has its share of weaknesses. Just to quote Guigs on his India Guide from ESOC:
Economy: India economy requires time to be set up and requires the combination of several shipments. Foreign logging is nice in the long run but 700w allows you to get infrastructure/market upgrades more quickly. You can send 300 export to get 4 ottoman villagers but you won’t be able to get the ottoman delis at the same time if you choose that option.
If you want to go for a fast fortress strategy, you will have to sacrifice some economic potential to be faster.
Military: Although you do have access to excellent unit composition in the commerce age, these units get outclassed in the fortress age. If you choose to follow up your opponent to the fortress age, you will struggle to hold early fortress pressure, as your age up wonder takes time to build, and none of your commerce age units shadow techs, meaning that you will have to upgrade them to disciplined (veterancy). India doesn’t have an arsenal, so to get access to techs such as counter infantry rifling, you will have to spend a shipment on Royal Green jackets card.
Artillery: Your main weakness will be artillery. You can’t train any yourself early on and the only response you have will be training siege elephants (requires a castle and is very costly) or ship the 2 siege elephants shipment. This unit has good siege and is decent against artillery but that’s about it. Not to mention the pathing they tend to have is horrible so be aware of that.
As already stated above, barring OP who has always been biased toward his civs, most would agree that the only unusually stronger aspect of this civ is the Azaps and an overtuned Rajputs. I would even argue that Sepoys need a 2x multiplier vs cav and 1.5x vs shock infantry. Therefore for the reasons stated above, I conclude that Minutemen are a must for India and an integral identity of their gameplay.
PS, I don’t think Supremacy balance should be balanced off of treaty recommendations. That would be a very unhealthy way to look at things and would make the civ unplayable for 1v1s or teams. You balance civs from the ground up, not the other way around. Besides didn’t India just receive late-game cards and train time improvements? All the treaty pros think the civ is in a decent spot.
Also, why are you using Otto consulate that late in the game when you could use the Brits consulate instead for the hp bonus+?
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Their deck is toooo limited, there is no slots for cards.
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5 cards for trainig time. Too much in comparison the 2 for other civs.
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Sepoys lose 10% HP/attack in imperial to move it to a HC card not that usefull in treaty. While they have been nerfed several times.
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I aim for a lategame benefit from consulate. That could be usefull for supremacy too, is not ome thing or the other. It could grant new play style or strayegies.
Bank, Church, Factory, Fort, Trickles…India has no late bennefit from consulate but 4 villagers.
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Japan dont use dutch or Spanish? China dont ise Russians?
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If their economy is that bad, why not a buff to Karni Mata or an economy tech at otto consulate? Why not a mosque or an arsenal with unique improvements for them? Both modes balance hasnt to be exclusive.
If there would be an artillery focused civ ingame…
Like everyone?
Your literal words was to add an outpost shipment like chinese blockhouse…
If you dont want to remove minuteman there is another shipment…bombards just saying. Meanwhile how many shipments dutch grant?
Only 2 train time cards, the remaining also decrease costs and add stats bonuses.
And your point is? Sepoys have been nerfed for everyone. Don’t you see me advocating for a buff ^?
Then why try to weaken a core feature of their supremacy gameplay by taking away their minutemen?
For a wood-based civ, we have among the best trickles in the game.
India uses Otto and Brits, sometimes even French for niche builds.
India is a very good eco civ, no one here has tried to refute that. We’ve only stated that it’s eco kicks in later than most civs. Late != bad.
You have Fur trade which helps you get an insane eco for treaty, especially with the radius increase for Karni Mata. None of the top players complain about India’s eco or lack of.
There are, try playing them?
We’re not complaining.
Have you ever tried to ff with India? You will not hit their (other ff civs) timings, nor have shipments to spare, have to upgrade at least 2 units to 3. You need wood for vills, upgrades and infrastructure. And most importantly you just can’t ff with 700c alone. India needs a minimum of 2 cards in age 2 to get to the 3rd age.
Ummm, what?
So you want me to wait to gather 850 export to send two bombards, while minutemen would only cost me 200 export? Do you think I could gather 850 export in time for a supremacy game that lasts only 15-20 minutes (usually) and not maybe spend it for 4 vills, minutemen or delis?
Are shipments really a problem for you in the late game with Sacred Fields?
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Come on man stop arguing with this guy. This ekdal guy always comment on treaty and late game. He is a well known noob only play treaty and some 4v4 large map simcity games where no one make army before imperial
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Yeah, my bad. Apologies.
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thats basically on par with sending 5 sepoys for stoping a timing push so you would just send that over anything and you can counter attack with it.
you got the wrong guy there buddy. I was saying we can make that a consulate tech as well, not a shipment
No sabía que el juego solo tenía que consistir en partidas de 10-15 min. El modo de tratado es una parte de la comunidad, te puede gustar más, te puede gustar menos pero ahí está.
Si comento sobre tratado es porque a diferencia de vosotros, lo juego y como otros jugadores de tratado vemos fallos en el balance que los jugadores de supremacía obviais.
Si fuera por vosotros todavía tendriamos gendarmes instantáneos o cajas de Oprichniks. Por que eran parte esencial, no? Si todos lo usan…
Yo no he faltado el respeto a nadie, así que no hace falta insultar, que aquí sabemos todos. Si tan novato somos los jugadores de tratado te animo a que juegues y a ver que tal se te da, genio.
Para ser un novato sé que envían una iglesia, un banco, un arsenal y un corral. 4, no como los otros que envían 3. Y bueno, sobre la experiencia. La gran solución frente a la infantería fue añadir 2 cohetes. El problema surge cuando necesitas madera, y creéme, India gasta mucha. Por tanto, se vuelven un poco inaccesibles, manteniendo el problema.
Hablaba sobre cambiar ese envío de bombardas por otra cosa, ya que no quereis tocar los milicianos. (Por que supuestamente son esenciales bla bla bla)
M8s disculpas, fue Coofeco01 no tú.
Me refería a los Otomanos, del consulado que estamos hablando. Parecía obvio…
Otra vez la misma excusa. Francia, Mexico y Haudenosaunnee también y aquí estamos, además lo nerfearon hace poco. Parece ser que sí hubo quejas.
¿Y una vez que se va ese oro? Unidades caras + Tener menos aldeanos (Para espacio de población) + escasas cartas = Unos ratios terribles.
El Karni Mata, según pasan los meses cada vez se convierte en una broma más mala. Teoría económica tiene un efecto mucho mayor. Y en tratado el aumento de alcance no es un beneficio tan grande. Tepees, graneros, banderas…movibles y reemplazables.
Lo sé, pero gastar madera + exportación (normalmente 300 de una carta) en algo que simplemente puedes tener con un envío? Y puedo tener el mismo razonamiento, puedes mandar dalelis antes que unas torres desde el consulado.
No sé tú, pero yo prefiero 2 fábricas. Y eso simplemente ayudan a solventar el coste en madera de los aldeanos, no mucho más.
En supremacía. Japón y China van pasando por todos los aliados para recibir cada una de las mejoras. Con india lo único que puedes hacer es envíar los 4 aldeanos, pasar a Francia para el 5% hasta acabar el tratado si lo hay y luego a los británicos. El resto de la exportación la puedes tirar.
Totally agree. Good changes.
Nice.
well seen!
Is ok, together to the free uhlans can counter skirms easily. And practically don’t need uhlans to raid. In teams they are very dangerous.
good point, It is very easy to kill 1 or 2 vills with a royal french rush
good, good.
If not is team card, cost 300 food to 0.
mmm, nah, makes them interesting, and the opponent just has to change the formation. Although they have gone from being practically the worst to the best native light cav. And the real problem is with France. I prefeer increase the cost or nerf hp.
The changes to chevaulegers, royal musks and conquerors would really hurt me. I love them and use them a lot. But I accept that they are of a higher level.
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Ese es tu punto de vista, muy bien. Pero que a ti no te guste no signifoca que el resto no podamos jugarlo.
En tratado cada civilización puede usar todo su arsenal, no solo una o dos unidades (Ya que puedes mejorar todo fácilmente). Además, permite batallas más grandes, con más ejército y acción, no solo escaramuzas con pelotones de 20 unidades.
Entonces, si tratado no vale, podemos borrar el 70% de las cartas, total, si en supremacía no se usan. Y nos quedan unas estupendas barajas de arcones y unidades.
Y para tu información, un balance en tratado es un balance en edad imperial. Última etapa de la partida en la que todas las naciones deberían ser capaces de ganar, pero supongo que prefieres que naciones como Suecia te ganen simplemente con granaderos gigantes. Bien por ti.
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