And here we go again.
Demu lost his 8 Keshiks in a matter of 2 seconds xD (16:17 min/sec)
8*200=1600 resource. 960 food and 640 gold xD
This unit is atrocious at its best.
And later in the game, Demu switches to MAA because Keshiks are just a paper xD
No one needs this trash unit. It has no role or purpose.
Drongo’s quote of the day:
“Keshik is a noob trap” xD
Guys i think keshik need to have attack while moving also bu it will be attack the 180 degree in front of them so when they run pass near a enemy unit they will attack it
They should also swing a light sabre and cut enemies in half.
So after the enemy is cut in half, they become two units and are easier to kill because half dmg and half hp.
When charging from a distance, Keshik throw their light sabre like a boomerang.
This has a cooldown of 30 seconds, going down by 5 seconds every minute.
So at 6 minutes they become fully ranged but do laser dmg (siege damage), so they ignore armor and ranged armor.
Then you can also choose the colour of the light sabre.
If they do, you can research a technology to bring them back as half-cyborg, half Keshik.
But their oxygen masks consume 1 food per minute each.
When a Keshik in this state fights a Lancer, the Keshik will let the Lancer know, that he’s his father.
Knight is the mother though.
It seems someone had that idea already for war elephants.
WIth mongols, Keshiks needs to be cheaper for what they are or they need make mangudai better in castle.
Yeah, cheaper and maybe a faster train time as well. Mangudai do need a buff in castle.
We know thats the design and we’re critiquing the design.
In age 2 its very strong - the high dps and heal mech shines more early on. Also in early ages, pumping out more units for less res tends to be better than overall pop efficiency.
In later ages it trades alot of upfront fighting power for the better raiding potential. Specifically, crossbows in any comp can negate the dps/heal mechanic with their range and the keshik needs that to counterbalance its lower hp.
In the end, heavy cav in general is the the thing that should be able to win even pop fights even against its counters and the redesign of the keshik takes away from that in a pretty wide number of comps. Its one thing to lose to Rus/French cav or mass ranger/tower elephant but (almost) everyone has crossbows - gotta think of something. Just cuz a thing is functional doesn’t mean its beyond improvement.
I’ll recap what i think you mean overall.
You want to have a calvary unit LATE GAME that offers you the similar benefits other civs get using the standard knight:
Formidable, versatile, mobile.
Meanwhile keshik late lack in the first 2 departments given how much easily they get countered in large mass vs mass.
If i summarized you correctly? What i was trying to get across is the design is forced by the devs mongols raider playstyle. The devs did not design mongols to take on late game massive engagement with heavy calvary as your backbone (i dont think).
They like the idea of high unit count, high mobility, pocket raids everywhere with the assistance of yam network. I think?
If you want mass late game fights stick with crossbow hc mma spear siege under yam and under 20% dps with regen. Not too many alternate late game masses can beat it (china rus and maybe abbasid).
That makes the Mongols not a cavalry civ.
You now see the problem.
The Mongols needed to shine with cavalry as it says it is a cavalry civ
You are making the Mongols good at infantry, and that is wrong, they need to have weaker infantry. And that is the design fault of many civs in AOEIV.
Your definition of good calvary civ supposes only one personal meaning to you and pp who think like you. Mongols are a good RAIDING cavalry civ? Good small engagement cavalry civ.
I’m no history buff but isn’t this concept thru to their historical fighting style?
Perhaps, maybe the Keshik should get it’s HP increased: 145 to 165 (Regular), 175 to 200 (Veteran), and 205 to 240 (Elite).
The meaning you caught is closer to the OP.
Im more worried about the degree of the tradeoff - does the gain of better raiding balance the loss of raw stats? The heal mech depends on attacking - is it too vulnerable if you get zoned by strong ranged units? Can it still
Thats a bit closer to my line of thinking.
Mongols were good at raiding, but they never traded away the basic staying power of heavy cavalry for it. I dont think the devs are goona push any type of play style too hard - else they would have the unit availability scheme of aoe2 as opposed to the more balanced one we currently got.
I just want to leave this comment for the record; I think the Keshik is great and no, I don’t want just another Knight. Folks trying to use it like a Knight are obviously not getting the desired effect, because Keshiks are weaker in multiple fronts. Try using them differently and you’ll see that this comparison is flawed.
I bet it was you who got my comment flagged? Meanwhile this isn’t breaking forum rules??? …sigh
Also I do notice you never clarified your statement I quoted??
mean?? Please educate, please…
I agree that the Keshik is a good, but underperforming unit.
Saying that it is a Feudal unit only, is pretty much what it is at the moment.
Regardless, the fix to Keshik isn’t to turn it back into a lancer. a Medium Raiding Cavalry is ideal, and it does its job well.
The Fix to the Keshik is rather easy.
It is to neither buff its defensive or offensive capabilities, but rather to buff it by other means.
First of all, a Castle age upgrade to allow it to do even more increased Siege Damage, perhaps even Bonus dmg vs Siege. That would allow it to pair very well with Mangudai later on in the game, and increase its effectiveness in collecting Raid Bounty as farms, camps and houses will be tortched much faster by a smaller group of keshiks.
Another indirect buff, is for the late game.
Just make the Khaganate palace toggleble what unit it is to create.
Stopping the RNG bull that it is today.
This way Mongols still have access to conventional knights in form of Rus-knights.
While the Rus knights will have limited production capabilities, having them mixed in with keshiks will help considerably in the late game stages of the game.
A bit like I said some time ago. Just let keshiks attack buildings with their normal attackspeed or give them more dmg VS buildings.
Different topic but I would really really like if they allowed both the random auto generation BUT also permitted a fix micro rotation, whereby you could select the auto rotation but could NOT duplicate the same pick back to back; you’d have to allow it to cooldown 1 or 2 picks.
PIck: NOB > RUS KNIGHT > TREB > NOB;
and it would retain the auto generation such that if you didn’t que your next pick it would pick it for you.
On reddit, most players agree, that they don’t like Castle and Imperial Keshiks and don’t produce them in these ages.
Just look at the comments, all the players don’t like Keshik. They all suggest making something else as the Mongols, such as MAA, xbows etc.
Make Kehiks a real elite cavalry or just bring back the Lancers.
No one wants a weak unit as their unique unit!
I like Keshiks. I prefer them to the Lancers. They have more sustain against low damage, and can harass things like Outposts and a TC much better than Lancers. They even hold up in Imperial with all their tech, and work really well with Kurultai.
I think turning them back into Lancers is a mistake. There are already two heavy Lancer based civilizations in the game, Rus and French. Mongols are more about raiding and having lighter units, which is fitting I think.
Keshiks are definitely trickier to use. But, I think they are worth it. Cheaper, faster to produce, and available in Feudal means you can get them out immediately upon aging up. Since you can buils Stables in Dark Age, this means you can have 2 Keshiks out in 30 seconds after aging up. 1 minute after aging up yields 4. This is enough to deal devastating damage around the 5-6 minute mark.
They aren’t very good against MAA or Knights, however. The trick to using them I think is picking your fights wisely, and not overly investing in Keshiks. If the opponent marches on your base with Spearmen, and all you have is Keshiks, that will be a GG.
But, if you have a handful or a dozen of Keshiks roaming about, killing traders, Outposts and proxies, they work really well. And especially againgst archers, who they are super effective against. In Castle Age, the Khan’s armour buff really helps them be utterly devastating when attacking a base. High armour and healing very hard to push back, and their sustain means they can often come back in not too long. Ultimately, they feel like lighter, more active Royal Knights, which I think is a good way to make these civilizations feel different.
Don’t get me wrong, I like keshiks in feudal. But only in feudal and what’s annoying, u need 2 charges and 1 hit to kill a vill. Often I hit with 2 keshiks a vill at gold mine, the vills run away and because of pathing or idk the vill still survives, while I got a lot of tc shoots. So that’s not a good raiding unit if u think about French knights. Charge, hit, vill dead move away.
Also 80 Gold is not that much less then 100 if u get a lot more value because u can kill a vill with a knight faster then 2 keshiks.
I would like to see a small buff in feudal, like let the charge do 25 dmg, give them a few more hp and / or let them move a bit faster like sipahi (between knight and horseman). Otherwise a knight will be still a better raiding unit. Another option could be to give keshiks a faster tourch attack. Btw a keshik dies to a 5/5 outpost in 12 attack volleys (heal included), a knight in 13. So they are about even or maybe a bit more cost effective.
Mmm. I would like to see them double down on the playstyle rather than default to making it more like a Knight.
For example. Maybe when hitting buildings, the heal is tripled. So in Feudal, hitting a building grants them 9 health. In Imperial that becomes 15 when you get their Steppe Lancer tech.
Additionally, maybe they throw torches at the same rate as their attack speed. This will make them better at raiding, while being symbiotic with their healing mechanic and work along side their 20% attack speed boost in Imperial.
This would make the unit a lot more cheeky. They would become far more efficient at taking down buildings like Outposts or harassing a TC. Additionally, through micro, the player can gain some extra sustain by attacking nearby buildings and fleeing.
Notice how none of this helps them against MAA or Knights or fighting. That is because again, I’d rather them double down on the playstyle than make them like Knights.