Mongols vs Inca

Seems the hard counter to Mongols later game is eagle spam. Im used to kiting just about everything, but the Incan Eagle gets huskarl level pierce armour combined with that speed makes it basically impossible for CA, so im assuming the best counter would be to tech champions? Even though they dont get the last arm upgrade they should still shred eagles.

Is there a better option? Seems mongols are better off than the huns at least…

I honestly don’t see how incas could ever reasonably counter mongols.
Once you get to a ball of mangudai - which is always going to be your goal - it’s going to be extremely hard for the incan player to ever tak a reasonable fight against you.
Even in a straight up 1 on 1 battle, 50 mangudai vs 50 elite eagles mangudai are able to take a reasonable trade, but such battle is unrealistic in itself. A combination of horde of mongol hussars with elite mangudai is something that the inca player is never going to be able to counter.

Really? I find that interesting. Couriers fully upgraded eagles vs Mangudai should be an absolute shred-fest for the Eagles. Hussars also aren’t ideal since eagles get bonus damage against Hussar. Halb/Eagle mix would be interesting vs Hussar/Mangudai.

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The point of hussars isn’t to counter eagles but to make for a meatshield vs eagles.
If you think about it, even with some ranged unit behind(which honestly you aren’t likely to be able to afford if you also want to keep spamming eagles) you’d be in a situation where as mongols you’d be using both your trash and gold unit to kill your opponent’s gold units, whereas he’d be fighting mostly your hussars, and even if you got to a point where your hussars would get shredded you can just withdraw with your mangudai as you are always the faster civ.

Even with couriers a ball of mangudai is always going to take an efficient fight vs eagles

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this doesnt make sense, do you have any proof to back it up?

FU eagle has 4 +6 PA(i meant it when i said huskarl level armour, and they’re faster than huskarls so can actualy catch the mangudai fairly easily)

Mangudai does 8 +4 DMG, meaning only doing 2 dmg

on what planet does that make for an efficient fight? also naturally the opponent isnt a retard, they won’t not train anything else… of course they’ll have skirms and or pikes… eagles and skirms to catch the CA, and pikes to shred the hussars.

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Ait primo: skirms for the inca player aren’t exactly too useful in this situation.
In post imp you are unlikely to be able to micro individual units(not that it’d make any sense to do so) so in our mongols vs inca scenario skirmishers would automatically path into attacking hussars(since they are also too fragile).

Secundo, mongol hussars are extremely strong; and they are able to almost take out a fully upgraded incan eagle in a 1v1 fight, while being far, far more cost effective.

Tertio, there’s no such thing as “catching CA”. To take out an army of mangudai you’d need a comparable number of eagle warriors with no terrain penalties, nor chokes, and even then the mangudai are going to be able to take a reasonable-ish fight. But against a competent player that’s just never going to happen, because mangudai+ hussars are always, always a much faster army than eagle+skirm+halb, the mongol player when he sees that he is losing will just pull back to a castle or other defensive position and wait for his hussar numbers to replenish.

Quarto, in the end it comes to meelee pathing vs stationary ranged units. DE has very significantly decreased meele units’ ability to choose reasonable paths when approaching other units. A battle of mangudai vs eagles won’t come down to states, but the fact that in most cases you’ll have at best 20% of your eagle numbers actually engaged, whilst for mangudai it’s always going to be 100%.
Think about it: if it takes, say, 5-10 seconds for pathfiding to find a way for eagles to take a reasonable fight, and before that they just keep getting stuck and don’t really contribute, as mongols you can reset these 5-10 seconds by just retreating 5 steps, which is always going to be enough for the eagles to start struggling again.

And no, there’s no actual “proof”. Most games at competitive level between these civs is nearly always going to end before the post imp stage.

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That’s why even a full Paladin army will struggle to beat an army of Elite Mangudai.

To be fair even with perfect pathfinding the eagles wouldn’t be able to hit all at once anyway…

im sorry man it sounds like you’re just saying things and hoping they’re true, or speaking fromgames you’ve watched as opposed to actually played

Yes i know the melee aspect pathing of the game is a pain, but eagles with their speed can still engage the magudai, doing only 2 damage per hit, each eagle takes THIRTY hits to take down, each mangudai only takes 4. while the eagle cost 15 less gold.

the frame delay on the mangudai + the delay on commands given vs actions taken, allows the eagles to catch the mangudai, so i dono about this nonsense of “there’s no catching mangudai”

also you are assuming this is based on the mongol players terms, you withdraw the mangudai to the castle, the incan/mayan just keeps pressuring everything else, WTF would they suddenly decide, OH WAIT! he’s replenishing his numbers, lets wait… seriously?

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wtf im sorry if im gettign defensive but are you guys all implying its not that mongols struggle, its that we all need to be boss level to use them?

paladins will rek mangudai, frame delay+delay from command to action = pals will catch magudai

ESPECIALLY since the retarded pc keeps making the mangudai blob when given a move command after shooting, change formo i dono wtf to call it, but units running across from one side of the formo to the either and lagging behind so the knights can slash them ESPECIALLY in big groups…

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Hi, you are correct. Mongols is a civ that has historically (AoE II wise) always struggled vs meso-civs in imp, as well as Britons for the same reasons. Your best (and only) bet is indeed champs. Though often not enough since aztecs can switch to Jaguars, and Mayans make plumed quite easily since they usually have them already quite well upgraded from Castle Age. So yeah, champs is the way to go, your window is quite narrow and you usually need to get imp before your opponent in order to truly succeed. GL HF !

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actually ! you were the one that said huskarls can rek CA… and now you’re saying CA can beat eagles (with the exact same armour as huskarls but faster) how does that make sense??

yeah gonna be tough, i can rush infantry races, and i can boom everyone else, but i gotta get used to fast castling archer/CA races

The goal is usually to win or gain a significant advantage before imp in this match up. Boomin-wise, meso-civs are also better than Mongols. In that case, i’d most likely opt for a 1 tc push even.

Mongols actually get FU champions with plate mail armor because they sorta struggle against huskarls and Mayan eagles. And if its pure eagles, hussar mangudai will beat them, even with all the armor, its still 60 hp, hussar meatshield will deal with them easily

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Secundo, mongol hussars are extremely strong; and they are able to almost take out a fully upgraded incan eagle in a 1v1 fight, while being far, far more cost effective.

Lmao, just checked and its hilariously true. If it had plate barding, the Hussar would actually come on top

I believe in HC3 semifinals, The mongol player won by using mangudai against Persian FU Paladins, without hussars!!! Persian paladins even get +2 bonus against Mangudai. although its worth mentioning the fight happened under a castle and the mongol abused stacking, so the paladins could not attack all mangudai at once

+2 agains foot archers only though. And under a castle, also. But yeah, mangudais can be tough to deal with, even with heavy cavs. But eagle spam is hard to deal with when you are Mongol. They usually go imp faster since their boom is better, and if not, you still have to fully upgrade AND fully mass, Elite Mangudais + Hussars which is slower and more expensive than to spam eagles. Talking about Arabia here, so on open map early imp eagle spam is hard to deal with.

Its a bonus against archer armor class, so it includes everything with that. Mangudai do have archer armor class alongside CA armor class (That’s why skirms do 4+2=6 bonus damage). It also means Persian paladins do bonus damage against hand canooneers, skirms, jannies, conqs and even mamelukes 11!

And you’re totally right, Eagles are an early imp spike which is hard for a lot of archer oriented civs to deal with. Also I’ve found that Lancers in group deal with Eagles quite efficiently especially because of the Eagle’s low HP and melee armor, patrol stack will work wonders

The Persian bonus is +2 against foot archers only. You are incorrect here sir. This includes indeed hand canoneers and skirms, but not conqs, not CAs mamelukes nor Mangudais whatsoever. Just re-read the Persian tech tree and see for yourself, or better yet, you can test it for yourself through a home-made scenario and see the results first hand.

I dunno about Steppe Lancers since i am quite new to DE and am of the old generation but it seems like they should do well indeed. I even forgot about this unit altogether :slight_smile: That is something to test out, as an alternative to champs for sure.

The Persian bonus is +2 against foot archers only. You are incorrect here sir.

Thats not how genie engine works, if you check advanced genie editor, you can find the bonus against archer class. You can also check which units have archer class.

or better yet, you can test it for yourself through a home-made scenario and see the results first hand.

That I did right now and the Persian paladin did 16 damage instead of 14 against a mangudai