Move on and make Three Kingdoms more accurate and balanced

[UpmostRook9474]

Hello.

Many people want the Three Kingdoms to be moved to a separated spin-off mode. Me too. But no matter they will be moved indeed or not, we can and should still try to make them better, like more accurate to the Novel or the history and more balanced in the game.

At least the civs should be more accurate to what they represent, no matter they are in the base game or in a mode, no matter they are ancient warlord states or medieval ethnic groups. We can get the existing civs better and still look forward to move them into another place and introduce new civs from medieval China in the future.

This is a long post, including personal opinions, thoughts and ideas on how to practice it, but I’ll try my best.

Let’s start!

General Changes

• Lord
  If the heroes are necessary in the normal games, they should be renamed generically to like “Lord”. But I think that removing them is still more popular to people.

• Traction Trebuchet rework
  It could keep trainable in the Siege Workshop, but should be a big and fixed trebuchet without wheels, and requiring unpacking and packing, just like what it is in AoE4. Some stats tweaks would be needed, like more HP, lower cost or more bonus vs buildings, but still cheaper and weaker than the Trebuchet as its identity.

• Bed Crossbow
  A Chinese siege crossbow mounted on a bed-like platform, replacing the Mangonel line basically.
  • All the three civs can train it and can upgrade it to Heavy Bed Crossbow in Age IV.
  • With a default “Multiple Bolt” mode that raises up the front of the platform and rains multiple ballista bolts as a volley, which is similar to how Rocket Carts fire along a curve.
  • If needed, also replaces the Scorpion line, with a “Single Bolt” mode that lowers the front and strongly fires one ballista bolts that pass through targets. If needed…

As far as I know, ancient China did not use torsion engines for siege weapons (like the onager and the scorpion), and more importantly having both the traction trebuchet and the mangonel (another name for the former) as different units is a bit strange in itself. (Although in the medieval Europe it was also traction siege weapons that replaced torsion ones except for the springald rather than the other way around, but that’s another topic.)

Shu Changes

• Remove the War Chariot!!
  Due to the very close concept, the current War Chariot can be modified into the Carroballista in a Roman style as an untrainable unit in the editor or a less likely new UU of the Romans. Besides, it also can be modified into a more typical Chinese chariot, which has a soldier wielding a long ji halberd or a lance, as an untrainable unit in the editor or a less likely new UU of Wei.

Reason (hidden for the long post)

A typical Chinese chariot would be pulled by two or four horses and manned by three soldiers. One is for driving, one is for firing with a bow or crossbow, and one is for wielding a polearm (usually a ji halberd, or lance). Basically be neither space to mount a large crossbow nor spare energy to operate it there. A soldier using a hand-held crossbow on the chariot instead of mounting a crossbow on the chariot would be closer to how the ancient Chinese used projectile weapons on chariots.

Chariots in China were almost completely replaced by cavalry in the army during the Western Han Dynasty. After that, when the word “車” was mentioned in records, it basically referred to other type of wheeled devices such as wagons, carts or carriages, used to transport personnel, materials, supplies, and occasionally as a barrier for a wagon fort. During the Three Kingdoms period, the army possibly had very few chariots only because of the legacy of the old Han military organization, which served as a means of transportation for commanders (like senior generals and their close bodyguards) on battlefield.

Establishing and maintaining a chariot force is very expensive and is quite restricted by terrain, so the cost-effectiveness is poor. As far as I remember, in the Three Kingdoms (2010 Chinese TV series) it seems that only Cao Cao rode a chariot when he went south to conquer Liu Bei and Sun Quan, and in Dynasty Warrior: Origins (2025) only Yuan Shao’s forces used chariots, which are both powerful forces controlling the Central Plains. It was difficult for Liu Bei’s forces or Shu to use chariots, both because of the economic situation before the establishment and the battlefield terrain after the establishment.

The devs might introduce it based on a military formation made famous by Zhuge Liang, while its composition is believed to include “車”. However, the actual content of this long-fabled military formation before the Tang Dynasty is virtually unverifiable, and its use of “車” is referring to wagons and is mentioned in a military manual from the Song Dynasty. The formation that Zhuge Liang adopted probably did not actually include “車”, and even if it did, the “車” most likely referred to wagons, carts or other wheeled weapons rather than chariots as the mentioned above.

• Civ bonus adjustment
  • Receive one free Villager for each economy technology researched.
  • Archery unit technologies at the Archery Range and Blacksmith cost -25%.
  • Siege weapons fire and move +10% faster.
  • [Team] Foot archer units +2 Line of Sight.

The economy technologies refer to those the Burgundians can research earlier. The bonus makes more sense to Shu because in the Novel Liu Bei’s benevolent rule attracted people to follow him voluntarily. This also helps slightly nerf their Fast Imp in Arena.

The siege bonus is tweaked to make it more concise and more differentiate it from the bonuses of other civs.

• White Feather Guard
  No significant change needed. Maybe +1 pierce armor, but personally the blade of the weapon for the Elite is visually too big. It can be smaller.

• [New] Repeating Crossbow Cart
  Replaces the War Chariot, but only has the Focus mode.
  Reduce the attack and make the awful rate of fire faster, and now allow it to be upgraded to Elite in Age IV.
  Visually a repeating crossbow mounted on a four-wheeled (the one used by the Relic Cart) that is pushed by a foot soldier, as if the current War Chariot had lost its horses and carriage.

The Barrage is nonsense and its terrible low accuracy looks unnatural for a crossbow. Having a chariot with horses as a siege weapon rather than a cavalry unit makes also no sense.

Even with the replacement, I still don’t really like it since it have basically similar gimmick to the Crossbow/Arbalest firing additional bolts, and more importantly, its projectiles don’t provide a good visual indication that they can pass through. To me, that’s totally fine to remove it and simply bring the Scorpion line back or have the Bed Crossbow with the Single Bolt mode.

• [New] Juggernaut (Siege Workshop, Age IV)
  Powerful wheeled flamethrower covered in a roaring tiger appearance.
  Can be used as the front row to cover other ranged units, or as the back row to deal damage while infantry are covering.

In the Novel, Zhuge Liang’s wife invented the Juggernaut (虎戰車) to counter the tigers tamed by enemy during they were suppressing the rebellion of Nanman people.

• [New] Wooden Ox (Castle, Age IV)
  The potential replacement for the hero unit if he is removed.
  A siege weapon that can’t attack but heal nearby units and siege weapons within 4 tiles (no stack).

In the historical record, Zhuge Liang himself invented the Wooden Ox (木牛流馬) during his Northern Expeditions and it was a ox-like cart that allowed soldiers to quickly transport large amounts of supplies.

As there is no exact and detail record of what the Wooden Ox looked like or was made of, so we can use the visual of the Wood Cattle from AoE3 or the Mechanical Ox Caravan of Chinese from AoM for fun, which looks literally a wooden ox!

• Tech tree adjustment
  • Gain the Iron Casting.
  • Adjust the Bolt Magazine to: Crossbowmen, Arbalesters and (Elite) Repeating Crossbow Carts fire +2 projectiles each strike; (Heavy) Bed Crossbows and Lou Chuan fire +4 projectiles each volley.
  • Lose the Thumb Ring, or make the Bolt Magazine additionally increase the reload time of Crossbowmen and Arbalesters to offset the effect of Thumb Ring.

The fully upgraded Arbalester that gains +2 damage is too powerful. Viking Arbalesters lack the Thumb Ring but still only have +1 attack.

Wei Changes

• Remove the Xianbei and Northern Wei stuff!!
  Leave this Xianbei stuff to their own civ.
  • Give a new Wonder to Wei. The current one can be reserved in the editor or for the potential Xianbei civ.
  • The current skin of (Elite) Tiger Cavalry can be reserved in the editor or for the potential Xianbei civ.
  • Remove the Xianbei Raider and bring the Cavalry Archer line back.

Historically, the Hu peoples who were actually absorbed by Wei and joined Cao Cao’s forces were mainly Wuhuan and partly (Southern) Xiongnu instead of Xianbei who were located further north at the time. It is said that their most notable contribution to Wei’s army was as skilled shock cavalry and many members of the Tiger and Leopard Cavalry have backgrounds in those tribes.

• Civ bonus adjustment
  • Economy technologies cost -50%.
  • Barrack, Archery Range and Stable cost maybe -25% or -30%.
  • Each existing Stable provides +5 HP to melee cavalry units (except Scout Cavalry line) in Age III/IV, up to +20/30HP.
  • Cavalry Archer line units can reload immediately after the next shot when fully charged.
  • [Team] Cavalry units +2 attack vs siege weapons.

Encourages aggressive fighting in Age II and III allowing them to save resources from economy technologies and military buildings instead. The Central Plains region controlled by Cao Cao had the most abundant population and the most developed land at the time, so it makes sense for Wei to have easier access to economy technologies and to establish military bases.

Adjusts the cavalry health bonus to no longer counted by percentage, differentiating it from the Franks bonus. Also, it’s said that one of the reasons of the strength of Cao Cao’s cavalry forces is that he ordered the establishment of many official horse ranches for breeding and keeping warhorses.

The Cavalry Archer bonus is meant to be a homage to the original Xianbei Raider and to have a fine choice for ranged fire.

• Tiger Cavalry rework
  Gain a new skin and new stats to become a unique upgrade in the Stable, so the line would be: Hei Guang Cavalry-> Heavy Hei Guang Cavalry-> Tiger Cavalry.
  Still able to gain attack and HP as killing enemy units.
  Maybe it could also be renamed to Tiger and Leopard Cavalry, but I’m fine with the current name.

• [New] Pili Cart (Castle, Age III/IV)
  A mobile traction trebuchet with wheels.
  Recycle the current Traction Trebuchet’ visual and animation, has more accuracy and attack but the range is shorter to about 8 and 10 (elite).

In the Battle of Guandu, Cao Cao’s army built wheeled traction trebuchets to counter Yuan Shao’s archery siege tower. The soldiers called them the “Pili Cart” (霹靂車, where pili means “loud thunder”) because they made a loud thunder-like sound when firing rocks.

• [New] Guard Chariot (Castle, Age IV)
  The potential replacement for the hero unit if he is removed.
  Has similar stats to the Knights’ or Cavalier’s ones, but cost pretty higher in exchange for dealing trample damage, for a capability of fire a bolt with a bow or a crossbow when fully charged, and for inspiring nearby units to attack faster (no stack).
  Visually a typical Chinese chariot with a soldier wielding a long ji. Recycle and modify the current War Chariot’ visual to a melee cavalry unit rather than a siege weapon.

• Tech tree adjustment

  • Adjust the Tuntian to: Foot soldiers passively produce 4 food and mounted soldiers passively produce 3 food for every 100 seconds when not fighting.
  • Adjust the Ming Guang Armor to: Hei Guang Cavalry line units take -20% melee damage, and ignore the guaranteed 1 damage when the armor is higher than the original damage.
  • Lose the Parthian Tactics, while gain the Plate Barding Armor, Plate Mail Armor, and Champion.

Provide fully upgraded Halbediers in Age IV, though still lacks Gambesons for the Champion.
After changing the effect of Ming Guang Armor so that it won’t overlap with the Gurjaras UT, the strength of cavalry should allow them to obtain the Plate Barding Armor.

Wu Changes

• Civ bonus adjustment
  • Buildings and ships provide 10% food of the wood cost when built.
  • Infantry +1/+1 armor.
  • Careening and Dry Dock available one Age earlier, cost and research time -75%.
  • [Team] Houses built +100% faster.

Having the food bonus affect more buildings and ships but at lower amounts can make the benefits less aggressive but more modest and helpful in the long run and in water maps.

Replace the infantry regeneration that embarrasses the Berserk with extra armor.

• Fire Archer rework
  Try to rework its gimmick:
  • The modes are removed. Always fire one flaming arrow every strike with a fixed basic attack of 1, a fixed basic range of 5 and a fixed reload time of 2 regardless of whether the target is a unit, ship, or building.
  • Can attack ground.
  • The projectiles leave lingering fire in a 0.65 tile radius on the ground and ships like the Mounted Trebuchet’s.
  • The fire lasts for 4 seconds, dealing 1 damage per second to any enemy unit and 2 damage per second to any enemy building and ship, basically 50% time and damage of the Mounted Trebuchet’s fire.

Having the range greater than the castle is nonsense and problematic, and it doesn’t make sense that it can shoot arrows at a building that’s 13 tiles away but not at a soldier that’s 10 tiles away.

That being said, the theme of this unit is a bit awkward to begin with, since every ranged unit visually already fires flaming arrows after Chemistry is researched.

• Jian Swordsman rework
  In order to make the mechanic more sense, especially after removing the regeneration, the Shielded/Unshielded modes could be reworked with one of the following 3 ways:

  1. Simply allow the modes to be switched with a button, rather than based on the remaining HP. Has the HP reduced to about 75 in exchange.

  2. Only has X HP, but gains a full and un-rechargeable bar as a shield that can take up to 90-X damage. Once the shield is broken, the unit will be automatically switched from the Shielded Mode to the Unshielded mode. Then, the unit can regain a shield only after not attacking or taking damage for Y seconds in the Unshielded Mode.

  3. Combine the above two. Has X HP and the shield that can take up to 90-X damage. When the shield hasn’t been broken, the modes can be freely switched; when the it has been broken, it can regain the it only after not attacking or taking damage for Y seconds.

Using health to determine mode switching seems unreasonable and difficult to control to me. They may hold shields when the player needs them to advance as quickly as possible or deal as much damage as possible, but they may lack shields when the player needs them to cover other units.

• Rename the Jian Swordsman to “Dare-to-die”
  Renamed from Jian Swordsman as that is a very bland name as sword is usually translated to ‘jian’ in the Chinese so currently the unit is named simply ‘swordsman’ in the Chinese localization.

The new name of the Jian Swordsman refers to “死士”, or “敢死軍”, in Chinese, especially the latter, which was indeed the name of a troop that existed in Wu. They were dreadnought vanguard, willing to strip off armors for assaulting fearsomely.

• [New] Armed Handmaiden (TC, Age III/IV)
  Or Handmaid Guard. Like the Militiaman from AoE3, can automatically upgrade by Ages and quickly get trained at TCs but the health will automatically decrease over time until 1HP.

The women of the Sun family, such as Sun Quan’s wife and sister, had over a hundred armed female attendants equipped with swords for protecting the ladies and households. The Wu faction also the one having the most number of important female characters in the Novel.

• [New] Night Raider (Castle, Age IV)
  The potential replacement for the hero unit if he is removed.
  An elite light-armored melee horseman wearing helmets with white goose feathers, costs gold, moves very fast, and can also inspire nearby units to move faster (no stack).

Gan Ning, a general of Wu, led an elite cavalry unit and famously assaulted Cao Cao’s main camp at night during the Battle of Ruxu. Although night attack, like fire attack, was not a unique tactic, this unit is to reflect the small but strong cavalry force of Wu.

• Tech tree adjustment
  • Rename the Red Cliff Tactics to “Fire Attacks”, and adjust it to: The Demolition Ships and Petards can deal a damage against ships and buildings over time, which stacks and ignores armor; the lingering fire by Fire Archers last +2 seconds and +1 damage per second against ships and buildings.
  • Replace the Sitting Tiger with “Private Troops”: Infantry, archers, and cavalry cost -10%.
  • Swap the Fire Attacks and the Private Troops.

Among fans of the Three Kingdoms, Wu and fire attack are closely associated not only because of the Battle of Red Cliffs, but also because of the Battle of Xiaoting. Both were important battles in which large numbers of invaders were defeated by fire.

Hu Dun Pao,the trebuchets that “Sitting Tiger” is referring to, was not existing in the Three Kingdom period and had not been recorded until the Song Dynasty.
The civ already has Fire Archers as a useful siege tool, so change the effect to mitigate the economic pressure of military costs as the food bonus is less matter later on.

Context of the reference of "Private Troops"

Although the local gentry, who were aristocratized local bureaucratic families, had great political influence throughout the Three Kingdoms, this was particularly true in the middle and lower reaches of the Yangtze River where the Wu was located. The Sun family had to grant those mighty clans economic and military privileges, exemptions from certain taxes, and the right to own large estates, serfs and private troops in exchange for their cooperation and support in the rule, which made the Wu more feudal than Wei and Shu, more like a regional gentry alliance, and the Sun family itself behaved like a leading clan of this alliance rather than a royal family ruling a kingdom or empire.

The private troops of the gentry clans making up the bulk of the Wu military. Of the Wu troops, only about 50 thousands may be under the direct command of the Sun family, and the rest are those private troops. There was a strong sense of unity and effort in the defense of the territory, but loyalty to the ruler was limited and there was little ambition for expansion. There were clans rebelled against the Suns for greater independence; In the Battle of Hefei, the guards even prioritized protecting their own masters over Sun Quan when once raided by Wei army; After Sun Quan’s death, the struggle for succession broke out into a bloody conflict between the two factions, each led by a princess and supported by different clans.

Xianbei/Hu civ

Introduce a new multiplayer civ based on the Xianbei people or the whole Hu people by recycling the current stuff.

• Hei Guang Cavalry line rather than Knight line in the Stable.
• Xianbei Raider replacing CAs in the Archery Range, trainable in Age II and has shadow upgrades in Age III and IV.
• Heavy cavalry UU in the Castle with the current (Elite) Tiger Cavalry skin. Perhaps they will be non-camel cavalry that are good against cavalry, giving them a different identity than Hei Guang.
• Wonder: Songyue Pagoda, the current Wei one.
• The civs of enemy players in Xie An would be replaced with this civ.

[DukeOfLorraine]

If you make the traction trebuchet pack & unpack like the normal treb, then it may be given to civs that existed before the counterweight treb (first documented by the Byzantines during the First Crusade, in the classical world). So for the Romans Huns and Goths notably, who existed before the counterweight treb

[UpmostRook9474]

@DukeOfLorraine

it may be given to civs that existed before the counterweight treb

That makes sense but there would be so many, maybe too many civs. I guess it is unlikely in the term of game design and balance.

Why the 3K can have a trebuchet unit at the siege workshop is they have to reserve a slot in the castle for the heroes or the replacements for them. The other civs have no such a need, and that’s one of features that make the 3K considered as special civs.

[MotorRogueBike]

May I add that they should at least “rework” the campaign?

For now the campaigns of 3Kingdoms feel really mid for a Three Kingdoms media consumer.

[UpmostRook9474]

@MotorRogueBike

“rework” the campaign?

I think doing something on the civs, making them balanced and accurate, has the priority. As for the campaigns, I guess there are difficulties.

As this is not a real RPG, the player can’t experience the story from views of the characters themselves, 5 scenarios with pieces of narration for a faction might be too less to explain the complicated plot of the Three Kingdoms and to carve out the character arcs. Look at the Dynasty Warriors franchise, they are RPG, and still there are usually more stages from the beginning to the Red Cliff. Also if they rework the story, the narrations have to be re-recorded.