Hindustanis
Villagers are 5%/10%/15%/20% cheaper in Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age → Villagers are 15% cheaper starting from Feudal Age.
Incas
Military units cost 15%/20%/25%/30% less food in Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age → Military units cost 15%/20%/25% less food in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
Malay
Battle Elephants are 30%/40% cheaper in Castle/Imperial Age → Battle Elephants are 25%/30% cheaper in Castle/Imperial Age.
Mayans
Foot archers (except Skirmishers) are 10%/20%/30% cheaper in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age → Foot archers (except Skirmishers) are 10%/15%/20% cheaper in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
Turks
Light Cavalry and Hussar upgrade are free → Stable technologies cost 66% less gold.
Gunpowder technologies 50% cheaper → Heavy Cavalry Archer upgrade 50% cheaper.
Overall dark age is a bit short an generic in Aoe2, so removing dark age bonuses like for Hindustanis and Incas is a step in the wrong direction. Instead civs like Celts, Vikings and Japanese should get their Militia-line bonuses in dark age. Also persian town centers should work faster in dark age.
The Turks identity would be ruined without cheaper Gunpowder techs. Cavalry archers also need no buffs at all.
Oh did I miss that? FM should be available in Barracks once you reach Imperial Age.
This was already ruined when devs removed 75% of gunpowder techs and made them free. And Koreans have better bonus than Turks for the last remaining gunpowder tech.
This was already ruined when devs removed 75% of gunpowder techs and made them free. And Koreans have better bonus than Turks for the last remaining gunpowder tech.
The bonus applies to Bombard Towers and Canon Galleons.
The combination of free chemistry, half prize for the Bombard Tower and the Artillery unique tech, means that Turks are maybe the best Bombard tower civ. And the Elite Cannon Galleon upgarde is also relevant on water maps.
Cavalry archers are also in competition with Gunpowder, because both is good against infantry. So with this change there would be less incentive to make bombard towers, Hand canooneers and Elite Cannon Galleon.
Turks atm have clearly the characteristic that Gunpowder is very strong and easy to get to. This should not be taken out.
Bombard Towers and Elite Cannon Galleons are also more special gunpowder things than Hand canoneers that half the civs have. But fast Imperial age with Hand Canonners is maybe the only thing that should be nerfed.
If there is a change what about this: Gunpowder technologies (including chemistry) are 75% cheaper and 75% less long to reasearch. It would delay Hand Canoneers and Bombard Cannons just a little bit, ### would make Bombard Towers and Elite Cannon Galleon even easier to achieve.
I definitely rather want to see more turkish Bombard Towers instead of more turkish Heavy Cavalry archer.
This is actually a super team bonus in water maps and nomad. Unnecessary change.
Unnecessary
No, no, no. I know France used Arbalests, and actually that is where the word comes from, but there’s a reason Franks don’t get Arbalesters. They are already super strong, and giving them a common counter to Halbs would make them completely broken.
It was nerfed in December for a reason.
Again, they got them removed for a reason. If Saracens, Malians, Berbers and Gurjaras don’t get halbs because their camels are so good, why do Hindustanis should get Halberdier?
Elephant balance is tricky. The problem is that if you buff elephants too much in order to make them more viable in open maps, you take the risk of breaking them in closed maps.
I agree. But devs already went to that direction by Dravidians design. All 3 of their elephant units are questionable for not having necessary techs yet having bonuses and UTs.
I don’t remember any game in Nations cup where Dravidians lost. Maybe there are some but overall they are just crazy good on water TG and a must pick. Water maps despite having 0.01% pick rate, I don’t want a tournament map having a must pick civ.
Oh yeah. I forgot.
Honestly both are very niche situation. And Turks may have the best BBT but that’s mostly because of their UT. Either way I don’t mind keeping it. Just seems very situational bonus.
It is not a buff for franks in 1v1 arabia. It is definitely a buff in team games, and could be a buff in closed maps. That’s because paladins + arbs, even weak arbs, counter pretty much everything in the game. More importantly, the +1 attack arbs have over crossbows matters for all low-mid pierce armour matchups. Lastly, taxmen have a maximum range of 5 after being FU. They hypothetical frank arbs will have a range of 7, which makes them far more deadly against camels in particulat.
Let me be more specific. Who says that mangonels ALWAYS AND EASILY have to counter archers? Mangonels vs archers is a high risk-high reward game. If they split archers, and you are able to predict and attack at a split, you’ll still get half the crossbows. If you have 2-3 mangonels, you still basically always win (given you can micro).
Even if that’s true, why would you want to make it worse? I don’t think that’s true either though. I am in the 1000-1600 elo range, and I see people dealing mangonels with crossbows. Once in a blue moon, I can even pull it off. But most importantly, that slow mangonel shot gives me time to run away. Even if I can’t kill the mangonel, I can still keep my archers alive. With this change, that’s no longer possible.
See, I knew we could come to an understanding. It’s not that the knights need the change (they do imo, but that’s besides the point), but this change skews the game too much in one direction.
There were a few, but your point stands. Dravidians aren’t just a top tier civ on water maps, it’s a civ you cannot let your opponent have. Which means you either HAVE to pick it, or you have to ban it. The two biggest multiplayer tournaments recently (nation’s cup, and douyu invitational) has had Dravidians in the top 3 picks/bans like 90% of times.
So, I do agree that the team bonus needs a change. But, dravidians get nothing specifically for water attack in early-mid game. Their ships aren’t cheaper, or stronger. In the late game, they get only one bonus, which is their unique unit. A change is fine, but the change you proposed is too much of a nerf imo.
The thing is, it’s still a NET gain that this civilization doesn’t need. Almost nothing in exchange. (The berry bonus is paltry here.)
Just having the Arbalester upgrade can achieve the symbolic effect, why do you need a UT for it?
Ok, at least we agree that they are no buff for 1v1… but my question now is… if you are playing TG, will franks even make arbs? Because they probably will have a archer civs as a teammate.
Also I rather play cav+pikes vs camels than cav+arbs
Pikes don’t cost gold
Franks have FU halbs
Both cav+pike will take hits from the camels in a melee (unless the camel player is a microgod), but in a cav+arbs camels will only hit the cavs.
On open maps, sure. We agree 100%. On closed maps? idk. Especially against cav civs, I see arbs increasing frank’s power, if they also get enough relics. Will this be a huge boost? No. But it is a buff, make no mistake.
We are expecting team games here. In team games, you often have to play 2v1. I played 3 team games today, and 2 of those had me play 2v1 for a long time. In such a situation, a ball of arbs supporting your cavalry is invaluable. Not to mention, when you are playing with randos, you can’t co-ordinate that well. In that case, I’d much rather have my own arbs than an ally supporting me.
Cav + pikes is one of the weakest combinations imo. Why? That entire combo will just die to halbs + arbs, arbs+ cav with micro, or just full on infantry. A mass of berserks will eat that alive. Heck, a mass of halbs from an infantry civ like goths, ######### ###### or dravidians will destroy you.
Now, you did specify that you make the combo against camels. However, in a 2v1 situation, you won’t be able to hold on long enough with halb+cav, but you will, with arb+cav. This is assuming that your 2 opponents are going cav+archer/cav archers+trash+a few siege. You goal is to survive a bit till your allies do something.
EDIT: Really, Aoe2forums? censoring names of infantry civs? I know you guys don’t like infantry, but to go this far? 11
Why would the frank play halbs against arbs? Also, if we start with “X beats Y”, but “Z beats X” we are gonna name all units in the game with the bonuses of the 40 something civs of the game…
Cavs and arbs is a great combo, but why it’s hardly used it in 1v1, because it is too expensive and you fell behind…
In open maps is not doubt that it’s not worth it… but in a close map such as Arena you would be expending as frank 525F and 525G to get this potential arbalester, plus something like 250G and 250F from the blacksmith…, You spent already de gold of 4 cannons in a close map just to pay the upgrades to play arbs…
If you manage to play cav+arbs combo and not give an advantage, you are probably better than the player of your ELO, and I wouldn’t be surprised since you play TG with ramdos. Team communicaation is something you cannot balance
I’m only going to comment on Koreans (including Korean-relevant generic changes), since they’re easily my most-played civ. Plus they definitely need a buff.
I’m not keen on the current team bonus, since for most players it’s either neutral, or as likely to be a liability as a benefit. I think your suggestion is fine, but likely to be fairly neutral in most cases. On most maps, you can’t really build outposts instead of houses, because their smaller size and lower hit points mean they can’t function as walls in the same way. I think this would be useful on Arena though.
I agree they need better ways to deal with cavalry (and probably eagle warriors too), but I think they need them before they have war wagons. Other suggestions I’ve read in this direction are towers dealing bonus damage to cavalry (probably too difficult to make good use of), and/or spearman line takes reduced damage from cavalry.
Sure, if the mangonel bonus is removed, this seems sensible. One thing I’m not keen on here is that Korean mangonels would be generic before Shinkichon. That’s basically true now anyway, since the minimum range bonus is so situational (and, as I said, sometimes a liability). I think it’s a problem because their weak cavalry means their best way to deal with enemy mangonels is their own (essentially generic) mangonels.
I think I agree with this, although the difference it will make is probably pretty minimal.
I disagree with the premise of this. Mangonels are already dangerous enough against archers. Pros are outliers, and pro play should be completely ignored when making balance decisions. (My reasoning here is that balance decisions should be made based on data and information – and when making decisions based on those things, one should ignore outliers. Also, pro tournaments typically use non-standard maps and have unusual civ drafting rules. Even KotD has its own version of Arabia, which unfortunately everyone else is expected to play during and long after the tournament.)
Yeah I realized I actually ended up nerfing them. Just surviving 1 extra hit from pikeman/halberdier doesn’t justify that huge gold cost.
Since I have already ask to create new “Battle Elephant” armor class, I think they should get +18 (+22) elephant armor. Then all gold anti-elephant units such as Kamayuk, Genoese Xbow should get attack bonus against “Battle Elephant” armor class equal to their bonus attack against “Elephant” armor class.
This is how it will change the outcome of BE vs Pikeman/Halberdier -
Number of hits taken by BE =
Bengalis = 7 → 11 (+57.14%) in Castle Age. 8 → 10 (+25%) in Imperial Age.
Burmese = 6 → 9 (+50%) in Castle Age. 5 → 8 (+60%) in Imperial Age.
Dravidians = 5 → 8 (+60%) in Castle Age. 4 → 6 (+50%) in Imperial Age.
Khmer = 6 → 9 (+50%) in Castle Age. 5 → 8 (+60%) in Imperial Age.
Malay = 5 → 8 (+60%) in Castle Age. 5 → 7 (+40%) in Imperial Age.
Vietnamese = 6 → 9 (+50%) in Castle Age. 8 → 12 (+50%) in Castle Age after UT. 7 → 10 (+42.86%) in Imperial Age.
Edit: Small Italians change is added.
(Elite) Genoese Crossbowman gets +5 (+7) attack bonus vs Battle Elephant.
Elite Genoese Crossbowman upgrade cost reduced 900 food and 750 gold → 800 food and 700 gold.
Condottiero gets +2 attack bonus vs Eagle.
That’s probably because of their unique ship, not the dock bonus. I haven’t played much water, so I don’t know for sure, but I think that Drommon ship from Byzantines, Goths and Huns will now hard counter Dravidian ships.
These are interesting enough to make elephants a bit more usable in TG. They’re still not worth 105 gold until monk mechanics in the game changes. Like one expensive tech or two to three smaller techs to make monks as good as they currently are.
All changes are very negligible tbh. Also I wanted to reduce Ratha upgrade cost as they are the most expensive unit to upgrade which is a burden for Bengalis.
UTs that affect only UU is also consider a terrible design by a lot of people. Hence latest big patch removed 2 of such UTs.
And 54 resources from E.Skirms and 38 from Pikeman. You have to pick one of these 2 as well.
My intention were to minimize their performance difference across elo. My thought process were having better Feudal Age will help mostly lower elo players. Higher elo players will also benefit. But higher elo players will find it difficult to unit transition which lower elo players often don’t. Also lower elo players have the habit of not getting a tech in earlier age to get better discount on the next age which is obviously a bad play most of the time. Having constant discount will help lower players more on that regard.
NGL, didn’t bring those maps into consideration. Changed it to Outposts.
This is a nerf for all maps as other civ will be equal eventually.
There are a lot of techs other than Archer upgrades.
Feudal Age
Fletch ing 10 seconds.
Padded Archer Armor 13 seconds.
Castle Age
Crossbowman 12 seconds
Bodkin Arrow 12 seconds.
Leather Archer Armor 18 seconds.
Thumb Ring 16 seconds
Ballistic 20 seconds.
Imperial Age
Arbalester 16 seconds.
Bracer 13 seconds.
Ring Archer Armor 23 seconds.
Chemistry 33 seconds.
Now looking into the research time of archer armor upgrades, I have no idea why they are so much time consuming. Maybe reducing times of these 3 will be a consideration to buff skirmishers instead of proposal of buffing mangonel line.
Almost all of these in the 10-20 seconds range. Chemistry 33 seconds is the only major advantage on Arena and other closed maps because it unlocks bombard canons. You have civs like Portugese, Malians that get about the same timing benefit. Just think about Malians and Portugese before their respective eco buffs. Even though they had 30% faster techs or 80% faster ballistics and chemistry, it didn’t matter much and they were both average civs. Its not an economic bonus, nor is it a bonus which has more impact compared to other civs to make the military more valuable, like the infantry armor upgrades for the new civ. If you and opponent click fletch ing at the same time, think about what you would do as a player when you notice your opponent has fletc hing and yours is at 70%. You would just wait a few more seconds and then fight. In a few situations that could actually result in villager kills or idle time but mostly its just mediocre.
why? Its usually one of knights/camels with one of crossbows/skirms/pikes. Even if you assume everyone wants to go crossbow + pikes or crossbow+skirms its 99 less resources saved at max. While Double bit axe, bow saw, horse collar, heavy plow, wheelbarrow, fletch ing, bodkin, both the archer armors (or infantry armor or cavalry armor, if you’re doing pikes or knights instead of skirms), ballistics combined leads to about 350 resources saved.
Fair but the transition in castle age is usually crossbows or skirms into knights. And that needs more investment from blacksmith and indirect upgrades than direct unit line upgrades.
First mining upgrade is usually done while on the way to castle age or somewhere in between. Second mining upgrade is not done until much later. Like early imp or something like that simply because that upgrade is too expensive for its worth. So effectively its faster gold collection rate for most part of the game which is what matters. Pre-buff when they just had longer lasting gold, it was the opposite and much less useful in most situations.
There’s a lot of good ideas here, a lot of which have been seen before, but curious what the math is on these BE changes. I see you added bonus damage vs BE specifically on a number of units, but didnt compute everything, is this essentially just to nerf pike/halb damage? How little damage is a non halb civ doing vs bengali EBE for example? i 100% agree BE need buffs, but it might be best to consider the worst case (possibly OP) scenarios, like AZ vs bengali.
The khmer change is interesting and is essentially an overhaul of how the civ will play, im not surprised people are against it. I dont know if its necessarily the best choice.
Serjeants need that discount, but not sure if donjons need it alongside them, even more so with the stone buff on the civ. Like they definitely need help, but not sure this is the best choice either, something along the lines of “farms get +125%” can go to “farms get +200f” meaning players can skip HC and HP, completely until they want it, and still have the same farms as other civs. as opposed to the enforced tech that actually slows them down (similar to the old cuman dilemma)
This nerfs all other siege (including scorps) but specifically rams, along side the large buff to onager line vs archers. I think projectile speed needs tweaking, but maybe not a 43% increase. Have you tried to calculate this change? It’s huge.
Burgundians getting a massive buff? Drav only getting nerfed? Big buff for hindus? Massive actually.
I really like the VN, Turk, persian changes, possibly Persian my favourite. All the rest are fine. Koreans possibly need more than that, so they arent so reliant on WW. But its a fair change.
Bengali is possibly the most unknown here, its potentially huge changes. How much faster do ratha kill pike/halb? EA become better in some areas(faster, better dps vs spears?), and worse in others. Much better BE.
is it OP after all?