Ok to be fair if you compare winrates then franks definetly deserve a little tweak chinese are fine imo and mayans i dunno i think obsidian arrow extra damage from 6 to 5
just imo i think the tackling of the forage bonus for franks seems fine
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I think, if anything I would nerf el dorado eagles.
100hp Eagles are the real killer.
I think nerfing Fraks forage bonus would be enough.
For Chinese, I also think that after redemption was removed they no longer are the power house prepared for anything. I think they are fine now. They have a slow uptime already, and thats what matters most on Arabia.
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Of course. Mayan archers and eagles are as expensive as cavalier + scorpions 
And in that case you just transition INTO full eagles. Tell me, what you transition into with turks, against arbs + halbs?
Yes it is. Free ballistics is HUGE
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As is free thumbring or free archer armour or the addition of eskirms. Ballisitics costs less than thumbring and comes way later than the tatar bonus.
But it doesnt change the late game or early game at all but just helps in castle age which makes it imo better than eskirm or archer armour.
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I’m not saying Turks are good, I’m just saying that you do not need all Trash counter units to be good.
Turks are missing Arbalest, missing Paladin, missing block printing AND Illumination, and they are missing Onager. Their Bombard Cannons have higher range for the cost of a castle, but deal less damage vs buildings.
The units they specialize in are simply not good. A cavalry archer buff would mitigate this problem. Cavalry archers are a decent counter to Arbalests in Imperial age. Until then they have their own Crossbows.
20% longer lasting gold, would make their gold intensive options last longer and switching melee and pierce armor for Janis would make them stronger as well.
And suddenly you have a civ that gets two strong ranged units, that work well against archers and Pikes, fully upgraded Hussars for free as a meat shield and two strong economy bonuses.
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Franks’ hp bonus only affects cav from feudal (was dark age before) and Chinese first got block printing and then had redemption removed which is a nerf because not only was redemption a useful tool to defend in castle age (useful even before block printing was added) but block printing without redemption is pretty useless.
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I dont like longer lasting gold for the same civ that mines it faster. That makes turks the ultimate turtle civ which needs to drag the game as long as possible until they have collected exodia. It affects their game style heavily of finding the right timing for the establishment of the deathball. They just need a push of momentum not a big change to unfold their true potential.
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So franks got a nerf that affects one unit and has done nothing to change their utter dominance.
Chinese ill give you.
Makes sense.
What about free Stone Mining upgrades in addition to switching Janissaries melee and pierce armor?
Should probably get Stone shaft mining too though. They don’t even get that.
I also feel like Janissaries should have the same accuracy as Hand cannons…
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Although it’s just one unit it was quite significant because you can’t just kill your opponent’s scout in dark age. I’m just wondering because very few people suggested nerfs for Franks in the past months, in most of all these published tier lists they haven’t even been put to s-tier which probably was due to the previous arabia version beeing more closed. And now that there is a tournament where Franks naturally shine because of very open map gens (that obviously favors scout civs) Franks are too strong? I mean don’t get me wrong, they are one of the strongest civs on these kinds of maps but also they aren’t the most versatile one (bad archers, even stable isn’t all that great apart from the knight-line) so I think they are fine.
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Cheaper Blacksmith wouldn’t make Bulgarians to survive Feudal and Castle Age.
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I agree most of these changes would make the game better.
Interesting that if this was a patch there would be a theme of ‘making buildings cost less wood’.
I especially agree with the proposed changes to Foot archers, CA,
Hand Cannoneer (I agree increasing the DPS is the best way to help them),
Steppe Lancers (Would help differentiate SL to Knights as Archers are differentiated from CA, with the former being cheaper and easier to mass, and the latter being more pop-efficient & powerful),
Koreans, Portuguese including the change to Organ Gun, and the longer lasting Turk gold
Proposed Aztec, Mayans and Bulgarian changes sound fine.
Burmese I think could be buffed a bit more, by giving them an Elephant buff for free, as a civ bonus. I’d like to see Burmese Elephants in castle age semi-regularly, and you can see by comparing the 4 elephant civs this will only happen if they get a non-UT bonus.
Also EBE with 9 pierce armour would only really die to halbs or other elephants, which is the thing I like least about elephants.
You could instead give 1/1 armour for free and have a UT which increases splash damage, though I understand you put more thought into it than I did.
Franks sounds like an over-nerf.
Italians would need a complimentary nerf to water, but I understand why you don’t care.
Khmer - I wouldn’t nerf castle-age elephants too much. Khmer already go knights often. Reducing the speed bonus might be enough, or it might not.
Tatars - if you’re going to give them a food bonus, I think a 50% discount to Bloodlines (and optionally husbandry) would be more fitting. 50% discounted Bloodlines would help a lot more in a Feudal war (due to being able to delay the mining camp). I can see 50% discounted eco techs also has advantages.
Turks just don’t have very good units, and giving them Elite skirms isn’t a good way to help them. To engage slightly deeper in the argument:
Turks are also weak in team games (do I need a citation?). Fixing them without giving them Elite Skirm might force you to fix their team games too. I don’t have an optimal solution, but I think giving (some) gunpowder units more PA might help, as might adding Onagers. I’d also consider giving them Siege Engineers.
Disagree with the proposed change to Champions. Champions are already game-winning in many situations. Maybe not on all levels, but on my level it can be, if the opponent is not prepared. To me champions show what the militia line could be - hard to tech, needing a good economy to spam, countered by a handful of (gold) units, and capable of wrecking everything else. They don’t need to kill Skirms/Eagles, they win by denying space (thus protecting the archers/siege/villagers), wrecking the opponents vills&buildings, and forcing the opponent to micro (thus taking up his attention). I think the game would benefit more from making the LSM more similar to the Champion, rather than buffing Champions.
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dont think its an over-nerf is just an adjustment to their forage power and it would be better then tackling chivaraly for example
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Let me just give some other proposals as bonus, with some possible civs that can get it. Maybe this can be useful to update the list of @MatCauthon3, which is already pretty good imo:
- UTs can be researched in the university (Portuguese/Koreans for water)
- military buildings cost -50w (Portuguese, boosted in their open tech tree, or Italians, since this would have no effect on water)
- free archer armors (Italians or Koreans, both civs are weak on land)
- TC tech are 50% and faster to research (Bulgarians, Tatars, Portuguese, all these civs have weak start and the bonus may help)
- archery range units can be trained also in barracks and stables (Italians but also Tatars, which may have a better switch from cavalry to CAs)
- towers cost stone only
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Phrased like this it would include age ups. I hope you don’t mean that, otherwise it would be extremely strong.
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SOOO Let’s disguss these changes:
These must happen! Longswords could have 1.0 speed as well, because they’re the most useless part of the Militia-line
I don’t mind this, probably a weak civ could get this
Of course cheaper Blacksmith is a cool bonus, but it’s too weak on its own and the Siege Bonus is waaaaaaay too late that’s why the deserve a Feudal-Castle age bonus
You always want to go Arambai in Castle Age with the nerf they should get a change that compensates the UU nerf, so Elephants +1/1 armor in the Castle could solve this problem. Remember Burmese don’t get the second Archer armor, which is a key upgrade even in the Castle Age
They don’t need nerfs
I think these bonuses can’t make Italians viable on land maps, but buff their water more, which is already completely broken compared to other civs. GC boost is cool.
Exactly.
Exactly. + Turtle Ship buff
Exactly
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Ofc I mean the techs, so loom, the LoS tech, and the vill tech (5 in total). Not sure if age up is consider as a tech… Chinese do not get cheap age up actually
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Nice changes
I will do mine to compare
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Never thought about the Chinese in that regard, true.
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Yeah, but actually if you played the old aom a civ (isis) got discounted tech (as china). It was including age up, but then it was removed in later patches. Anyway a bonus like the one I mentioned for aoe2 must exclude age up, otherwise it is op as you said…
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