Nerf a japon

Para cuando un nerfeo a esta civ? sus santuarios siguen siendo bastante molestos y la tienen muy facil y no me vengan con que es dificil construirlos por que con una simple carta son mucho mas baratas que una casa común

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Doing economic damage to Japan is more difficult than any other civilization. You can rarely kill a villager, he always sees the opponent’s moves thanks to shrines, and his cards can be sent 2 times. This can only be countered with rush, but if the Japanese decide to isolate themselves in the consulate, he can spawn 10 soldiers per batch from the barracks, so he’s also strong in rush if you know what you’re doing.

The real problem is that if he survives the rush with his wonders intact, he’s basically going to outclass you. After reaching the fourth age it is too strong.

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suma eso a que las civs que no son muy buenas en el rush les cuesta asediar asi que estan jodidas xd a no ser que seas un haude, sueco o español te costara mucho, italia no le va muy bien contra ellos

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What is your civ tier list ? Which civs would you put as S tier ? as A tier ? as B tier ? as C tier ? and as F tier ?

It seems that people on the forums have very different opinion of which civs need a nerf…

Since the last patch, I read already that Sweden, British (outside pro level), India, China, Ottomans are too strong and need a nerf. And now you mention Japan. Funnily enough, most recent comments I read where actually saying that Japan weak early game is too easy to take advantage of, hence making the civ below average…

So I’ll be very interested to hear about your ranking of these civs that many people qualify as too strong. And please mention whether you are talking about 1v1 or team game, and supremacy or treaty games.

no soy un pro colega, pero se cuando hay algo esta roto (por algo no ocupe a suecia cuando el hakkapel estaba roto de hecho hasta me queje de el) los britanicos por que nunca han sufrido un nerf y la india… bueno a ellos realmente no se xd y los otomanos por que el delilier era una unidad totalmente fuerte y por un precio casi nulo, en cambio japon tampoco es que haya sufrido nerf significativos, todos en si justifican que estos son debiles en edad II, lo cual es falso, si construyeron los suficientes santuarios (cosa que es facil con la carta que los abarata y encima mejora su indice de recogida de recursos xd) las japoneses tienen la ventaje de defenderse bien de un rush con buenos envios de tropas y una economia fuerte y dificil de destruir (tanto las kanchas como los torps se quedan cortos al lado de los santuarios, no solo valen más sino que recolectan mucho mas lento) lo otro es que sus exploradores pueden construir santuarios y plantarlos por todo el mapa, no solo obteniendo recursos, sino como puntos de visión para saber que hace el contrincante, osea que si haces tropas para asediar sus santuarios, perderas tiempo por que el japones ya estara preparando un ejercito con el cual atacarte y ademas de ello reconstruira sus santuarios perdidos y las civs algo defensivas lo tienen jodido por que los ##### ## no los atacas en un tiempo preciso es la definición de “se te fue el tren” te convence mi respuesta?

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You are making a lot of enemies as many want to continue abusing them and will claim they are not ops, it is also okay for me to remove them from the game so I don’t play them they are not my style of play

si quizas me haga muchos enemigos xd yo no estoy a favor de que los quiten pero si que los regulen un poquito

However the old #### ​​of tad (S tier and those who say otherwise never understood anything about life) don’t seem to have been nerfed or too much changed in the De, if you want to discuss this show me from the first De patch the changes of the #### ​​and flun comparison with Tad’s Japanese until then I will remain that they will be S tier but nobody knows how to play them properly to be S tier

Also look at how they were played by h2o level players, grunt and naturephoenix, of course they were stronger in those patches but they haven’t really changed much since then.
Not to make a 3 message, in 1v1 it’s definitely hard to play them but once you get to its boom it’s over for almost all civilizations. You have only 1 window to beat it otherwise you will have lost with most of the civilizations. Only India, Chinese and Germans can stand up to the Japanese very well even if the Germans will start to sweat a bit, even currently the Spanish and French are not bad against them. In team games, on the other hand, the question becomes very complex and they could dominate the game if played well (then it depends on what you have against but Japan doesn’t really have maps against it and it’s not map dependent).
I go as short as possible, I don’t really want to discuss the balance but to say that Japan is not strong is a blasphemy at the 2008 wcg

Not sure if I understood the translation correctly, but I am not convinced because you didnt give numbers and clear omparisons with other civs. You only listed Japan advantages.
Everything you said would still be correct if we decrease berries and shrines gathering times by 50%.

A shrine with 4 deers and age1 HeavenlyKami card gather 0.43w/s, which is less than an unupgraded settler, while costing 93w I think (with portuguese consulate). A british manor cost 90w (+20s building time) and gives a full settler, when using the VirginaCompany card (people usually rather send 3 settlers, but this show that British aschieve similar numbers with a card)
I do not see how japan is that much better off than British.

Japan has safe food gather with berries, but berries gather slower than hunt and japan need to send a card for more bushes (at 15 minutes maybe ?).

Japan shrines give you vision but you cannot defend them as well as banks or manors. And the opponent can send a villager killing the hunt in the middle of the map, decreasing the gather rate from 0.43w/s down to 0.15w/s.

Not saying Japan is not strong, just saying that it is difficult to mesure without checking the numbers. I was mostly surprised because recently nobody put them as S tier in their tier list (except here: ########################################################################################## but it is a list with a S+ tier including 3 civs deemed even stronger)

I believe Japan has a weaker economy than british but better stats on the units, making the comparision even harder. And I believe than civs like British and Japan are weaker at pro level where people can punish them properly.

That is why I asked for a tier list. Then I can see how you feel japan is compared to other civs. Saying “Japan is S tier and everyone else is trash” is not the same as “Japan is one of these 2 or 3 S tier civs, we should nerf them to the same level of these 5 A tier civs”.

  • I didnt play before DE but it seems that everyone agree that they were OP at the time.
  • I dont care whether a civ has potential to be OP as long as nobody knows who to play them properly to be OP. They can just be nerfed later after people figure it out.

This is just wrong thinking. You cannot say Japan is strong because it was strong in 2008… Past doesnt matter. Either they are strong not or they arent.

At what time do you feel it is over ? more like at 20 minutes or more like once in fortress age ?

I think there is a lot of japan laming (or ashigaru laming) in team as their units are so efficient and military+eco is so upgradable.

Since the 2008 wcg literally not nerfed to the max a few nerfs and tweaks but the civ has always been rated by all levels as op and S tier I’ve been following the De since its release and haven’t seen a single nerf but only ( or anything that would cause a nerf) a slight buff of some cards which are S tier the problem is either that they don’t admit it because they have to lame or because they never or almost never see a Japan properly which is fine by me . By window I mean 10 minutes maximum 12, if he hasn’t been pressed he is rushed correctly he will overturn the game and the window is closed so your win percentage will start to drop drastically, this depends on the civilization you have if you have China is still a good match but if you have Russia you have lost (even in skill of course, let’s not go back to facts like Darwin_Giovanny who destroyed Japan because he was clearly better than his opponents)

1: Un santuario por si solo recolecta 0,23 de recursos y es con una carta, no con el consulado portugues que mejora su recolección de recursos un 25 o 50% y reduce su costo. Compararlos con las casas britanicas es algo absurdo, estas solo te entregan un aldeano que puede ser matado facilmente si te mueves bien en cambio los santuarios seguiran siendo utiles y daran recursos pasivos durante toda la partida, la mayoria de la gente se concentra en matar a los aldeanos ingleses en lugar de destruir sus casas ya que saben que si reconstruyen una tendran un aldeanos gratis.

2: japon tiene un bonus de civ que recolecta la bayas más rapido, como si estuvieran cazando, suma eso a que pueden mejorar esa recolección en el mercado, y el arbusto de bayas que te dan en el inicio da 5000 de comida lo cual es suficiente para darte aldeanos, soldados y el suficiente alimento para dejarte casi en 3ra.

3: Los bancos valen 700 de recursos y tienes que hacer varios para que se noten tienen un goteo de monedas de 2,35 por segundo lo que equivale a unos 3 o 4 aldeanos de normal (solo con la carta de compañia de las ###### ########## bajan su precio a 297 de comida y madera) y para que hace falta defender las mansiones si el enemigo tratara de no destruirlas para que no hagas uso de tu bonus? si ya construiste santuarios y resguardaste la caza con tus santuarios el aldeano habra hecho un recorrido inutil, ademas el japones puede agarrar la caza de cualquier lugar para mejorar sus santuarios

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I checked and saw very little changes indeed. Two small nerfs around african civs release (20332 replace starting 100f with 100f to delay age up + nerf shrine hp, 38254 nerfs CA) and the recent patch (13.27885 buffs samurais and nerf shrines by 5%).

So maybe pros didnt mention much japan because if new op civs and buffs of other civs ?

The TR tierlist I wanted to link and got blocked ( Treaty Tier List & Explanations | Jaegerchere | AOE III: DE ) put then at the top of S tier, below 3 civs of tier S+ . So some people still recognize japan is strong in late game.

So more or less at fortress age up ? That is very early indeed.

It should around 0.17 w/s or 0.17c/s or 0.23f/s with heavenly kami + shrine wonder.
The portuguese consulate only decreases the cost by 10%, not the gather rate. I do not know where you saw that, but it is false.

This is absurd, you assume that the opponent can easily kill british villagers close to TC army (herding) and wont destroy shrines far away from your army. I think against japan you want to deny shrines and deers.

A british villager gather faster than a shrine before the age 4 shrine upgrade. I rate the british eco higher that the japanese eco. I think you overestimate japanese eco and underestimate japanese military.

I never ever heard about a japanese civ bonus to gather food faster. If any this is a bug that should be fixed.
Portuguese gather hunt/berries 5% faster, Indians got the first 2 wood upgrades for free, dutch gather coin 15% faster, french and german got their special villagers, and that should be it.

5000 food is not that much. It is like 13 deers, more or less one batch of hunt. Since we often herd two batches on the way up to age 2, a non-japanese civ should get like 15.000f of hunt plus 5.000f of berries, while the japanese only ger 10.000f of berries, and then must send a card of 10.000f of berries, they cannot try to secure more food on the map, contrary to other civs.

EDIT: I just checked, japanese villagers gather berries at 0.67f/s, like everyone else. Not at 0.84f/s like hunters.

Banks gather 2.75c/s before the age 4 card, which is a little more than 4 villagers. You should not send the card to decrease the bank cost by 15%, it is too weak; you should rather send 700w and gather 700f from hunt to build 2 banks. 2.75c/s is equivalent to ~6 shrines at ~0.46c/s with heavenlyKami + togoshuShrine + 4 deers. A bank cost 350f+350w, which is somewhat equivalent to 560w after accounting the gather rate difference between wood and hunt. So the rate gather/cost is similar between shrines and banks. With the differences that:

  • banks are safer at home and are harder to destroy
  • banks cannot be denied 67% of the gather rate by killing deers
  • shrines can produce wood, which is very slow to gather and very imporant early game

Both japanese shrines and dutch banks need to stay alive for the civ to make use of their special eco. Both civs (and all 3 with British) are known for being very strong in the mid game if not rushed.

Japan is impossible to beat if they don’t make mistakes, it is the dumbest civ in this entire game and it will never be nerfed by the Devs. All of these maps that are “deserts” or meant to force map control basically give Japan a free win. Euro civs can’t deal with switching sides so many times and keep their economy competitive while also fielding enough units vs Japan who gets everything for free with no risk to their vills at all. It is just total bullshit

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I play british, let me tell you how EVERY single 1v1 vs Japan goes now.

  1. Most of the time I start with pike + longbow to counter either vill harass with the sprinting musketeers and try to counter what happens every single time -
  2. The Japanese find the biggest wood treasure and kill it easily (because 2 heros with their stun), begin building forward shrines to block camps.
  3. start making pikes to take them down, at this point either have to build an army to counter Yamabushi Clubmen + Musket + bows + Daiymo or try to fully boom economy.
  4. If I hold off the daimyo etc. I now have a good enough eco to start making more units and make some kind of offense. By this point their economy is good enough to switch units to kill Pike + Bow or get to age 3, and its Falcs vs. Flaming arrows ( a culverin + falc combo)
  5. At this point there are 1-3 skirmishes where the archaic units get melted except his arhcers + musks are the best in the game so they do fine. I no longer have any hunts or goldmines to rely on because most of the maps in the pool now promote resource scarcity for map movement etc.
  6. His economy is entirely based on shrines I cant see built from the back and rice paddies.
  7. japans score now exponentially goes up while I am completely starved for resources - if I turtle at all, I’m still dead because my economy is substantially slower than the rice paddies upgraded etc. because I didn’t go for mills + estates at the beginning to tech them up.
  8. Their army continually gets more upgraded, higher health, damage etc.
  9. you lose, every single time the game is like this.
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1: Se entendio mal mi comentario dije y expresamente "Un santuario por si solo recolecta 0,23 recursos y con una carta, NO, con el consulado portugues, que mejora su recolección de recursos un 25 o 50% y reduce el costo de estos, me referia a la carta de edad 1 que tienen (pero te pusiste una trampa solo por que también confirmaste que los portugueses reducen el coste de oro)

2: no lo asumo, LO CONFIRMO! ya que ya e jugado contra britanicos y he podido matar a sus aldeanos de manera sencilla con un poco de juego de macro, ademas el britanico se tendra que ver obligado a buscar recursos por el mapa y no encerrarse

3: Si, los japoneses pueden recolectar más rapido de las bayas (los cerezales se recolectan a la velocidad de la caza y eso desde el TAD) y no, los portugueses solo recolectan un 5% más rapido de la caza y no de las bayas y esto se debe a que ellos tienen que mantener un boom constante, los indios deben tener esas mejoras gratis ya que sus aldeanos valen madera y es el recurso más valioso del juego y tu mismo lo dijiste, los holandeses es lo mismo ya que sus aldenos literalmente valen monedas, el oro para los holandeses es como el comer!

5000 de comida no es tanto?! es lo suficiente para poder aguantar en tu base para fortaliecerte y salir a pelear, claro pero se te olvida que una civ no japonesa debe pelear por conseguir esos 15k de comida y el japones no, una tarjeta de 10k de bayas te salva un monton, claro que no puedes conseguir comida del mapa por que no la necesitas, por eso están los santuarios para ahorrarte el tiempo

Tu edit esta mal: Ya que las bayas de cerezal son más rapidas y ellos tienen 2 mejoras para recoletar más rapido.

-Al holandeses le destruyes las casas y cuarteles yde nada le servira tener vivo a los bancos sino puede hacer tropas
-Literal, los japoneses se pueden aliar con los holandeses y tener un corral para hacer animales de granja y fortalecer su economia (encima tienen dojos que hacen tropas gratis)

Se te olvida que el holandes requiere de usar 4 cartas de su deck (5 si usas la de la compañia) para tener la maxima eficencia de bancos en el late game 2 de primera edad una de segunda y la de cuarta y los santuarios solo requieren de 1.

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Well said - exactly!!!

I remembered something of the kind and more on De than tad they gave 3 buffs, the first is the cattle fence when you team up with the Dutch useful for late game, 2 they increased the percentage from 5% to 7% on unit attack when you put consulate on japan and 3 the card in 3 age to increase the stats of the daimyo also affects in improving the training of infantry units so you train infantry faster and you will train 10 from each barracks. The replacement of the case is not a very hard ##### you will delay the 2nd age but mainly with the half hours which are slow it does not matter for japan, if you want, it still manages to block some rushes and on some maps it dominates more than others and that missing 100f could recovering with treasures is essentially a nerf that has little impact especially in team games and now you can leave the transfer market and essentially it’s not a horrible choice, certainly not the most popular. It must be added that on De, in addition to the nr10 meta in team games, new civs are added that can keep it or annoy it a little and do almost the same job as Japan only, however, they are easier to play than Japan which will become preferences , I would say better this way at least we get rid of many problems.

I don’t know how reliable that list is, the Iroquois have the worst economy in the game and not super strong units, Mexico’s economy is outrun very easily because haciendas are slow to raise money, they have good units but they are expensive and you don’t solve the problem of money with revolutions. However the rest of the civilizations (with some doubts about some) are found but this is treated.

Los iroqueses literalmente tienen al tomahack que vale madera y el jinete kanya que también vale madera, dependen mucho de la madera, menos mal les dieron esas cartas que ayudan a esas carencias, Las haciendas son caras pero ayudan bastante, el problema es que tardan mucho en ser rentables, y si las unidades mexicanas en general son carisimas