Nerfs to India from an India Main:

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Some of you might have seen me here on these forums, being headstrong against any nerfs to the Indian civ. I truly believed I was in the right. However, after recent discussions with ‘nonbiased’ pro players, who have attained true mastery over all the civs and other mid-high level players has led me to the realisation that perhaps I may have become the very thing I swore to destroy, a Gollum that had been deformed and twisted in body and mind by the corruption of the Ring (Gatekeeping your ‘Main Squeeze’ to be impervious to nerfs among other balanced civs only - not you Swe, Brits, Otto’s Delis).

Without further ado here are the proposed nerfs for supremacy games only:

  1. Otto con’s Bashibozuk: I see absolutely no reason why these units need 1.5x ranged and 1.25x melee multipliers vs infantry. Militiamen, that they replaced had none of that, please revert them, and instead, give them +20hp and +2 attack so they are similar to the Militiamen barring the obvious name and appearance.

  2. Karni Mata: While I welcome the +10 radius of sphere, the +5% increase in gather rates to 15% however is overkill. Please tone it down to 12% pending further tests. India is a slow civ to get going but surely for supremacy games it was always vulnerable to classic ff timings from Spain, Otto, Haud and the like. This 5% increase helped them negate that.

  3. Delis: Delis aren’t just an India problem, they are unbalanced for Ottomans but can be oppressive in the hands of an India player thanks to the 10% buff that consulate units get over their regular counterparts. Deli’s are basically Hussars with lower rof. Add the +10% attack and hp that consulate units get, it is a problem that is now a beefy Hussar with 346hp with a lower rof advantage.
    Solution: Make Delis more like hussars but with higher rof.

  4. Infinite Rockets: There are a few other nerfs that should be looked at, such as India being able to send the 2 infinite rockets that outperform their British counterparts. Bring them on par with them wrt to the age they are at.

Note: Siege Elephants for treaty games have approx 1.4k hp 30 range and 40% rr which make them almost unkillable. However, I will not wade into a treaty matter but is something to consider for the devs.

Now, onto the Nerfs that I am Strongly Against:

  • +5w for houses: As stated earlier, India is a slow civ, especially at the starting few minutes in the commerce age. They rely heavily on wood for vill production, houses, market-ups, and a consulate. Hitting them where they already are at a disadvantage to most other civs is a sure-shot way to demonise the civ to a near unplayable state. Please refrain from making this a folly.

To conclude, I’m confident that with these proposed nerfs, India should go from sleeper OP (among the balanced civs) to being a strong civ with good matchups and bad as before. Thankfully, I did not have to jump into the Fires of Mount Doom to let go of my Precious!

Thank you for reading,
Cheers to more ggs!

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Conspiracy against aykin ###### he’s winning too much and they want to nerf his civ

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Basically you hit all the points I wanted touched up like this, and I want the sepoy back training at the same time as before, if they can’t counter an 11/10 it’s not my fault. Siege elephants in supremacy I wouldn’t touch them in treaty I don’t know I don’t play it

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a lower value for ROF means faster attack, not slower.

currently their stats works out the unit having a 32.5 atk if it had a 1.5 rof, which is the normal melee rof

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Oops, my bad.
That’s what I meant.
Edited in OP.

Delis now have a 346.5hp and a 27.5 attack with 1.2 rof which is too strong with India. (applying 10% cons bonus).

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Lol Im totally disagree about Karni, Rockets and Siege elephants. India is far from be OP On treaty.
A 15% is perfect since is a limited bonus that you have to pay for and is available later than eco therory.

Siege eles are the easiest unit to kill on treaty, they are countered by everithing lol

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we could just allow some amount of staggering for the bonus, I think a lot of the wonder bonuses could benefit from just allowing an upgrade in the late game

edit: I am also saying this to get the white pagoda to scale with subsequent age up, just to list my hidden agendas

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Do you know what would make India (supremacy) so strong and borderline OP ? I’d be very interested to kniw the kind of comment you got from the pros. From your balance proposals it seems like India is basically a strong (not inherently OP) civ with very specific OP features that can be abused.

Overall I feel it is a very good thing if we can only nerf abusable tactics from a civ without changing the overall playstyle/strategy.
For me India is an “aggressive/rush civ that can boom behind skirmishes”. So I agree that increasing house cost by 5w might significantly decrease their rushing ability hence change the playstyle. Not sure how big of an impact 5w/house may be, but British mains & pro do argue that it is a big nerf.

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A mi lo que menos me gustaria seria nerfear un aspecto unico de la civ y hacerlo igual a otra civ, por ejemplo si dejan al delilier con un rof de 1,5 en que rayos lo haria diferente a un husar? yo aveces es que no entiendo

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The points I listed above are almost verbatim to what the pros had spoken of.

Yeah, this doesn’t change their playstyle in any way at all. Simply put, it reverts back to the way the civ was played without the extra eco bonus of the Karni and makes it easier for the opposing player to be able to punish a greedier build by taking away the multipliers from the otto cons levy.

Agree, if Brits players think 5w is a huge nerf, you can only imagine how much more oppressive it is for wood-based India. Not needed.

  • All-in consulate rush/sepoy rush is just that. It isn’t really hard to hold if scouted properly, with 2 batches of units, 1 shipment and tc fire. After that, you can just ff. India has lost steam and is stuck in age 2 after skipping market ups and being inherently slow. Classic semii ff beats India rushes.

  • The greedier India build is susceptible to classic FF timings as India can’t possibly ff with units to go at those times and is forced to play defensive until siege eles arrive. Which gives you a 90-120sec window to create pure havoc.
    The problem is, the karni 15% which give India a big eco boost to be able to inherently overcome one of its core weaknesses. This must be nerfed.

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Yeah, they wanted to make a hussar with lower rof which is, unfortunately, still unbalanced.

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Karni changes are needed for supremacy tho, they are too good and unwarranted atm. There needs to be a late-game upgrade if what you say is a problem.

About Rockets and Siege Elephants, my proposals are in tune with what JulianK, the number 1 treaty and Deathmatch player for some time now has opined.

Hahah, I love Aykin!

I think they’re fine as is, we’ll just have to take it one step at a time.

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india have bad matchs dont forget that germans, china, spain, russ, dutch are hard matchs for india in the game are more broken civs than india, like mexico, china, sweeden

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That’s true, not denying that at all. There definitely are more broken civs than India atm.

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Agreed , Every civs have their niches and high points in the game, India was always cornered as a tiny sepoy rush civ with no other capabilities. The karni mata is now at the correct it doesnt need any changes.

As for supremacy it might seem surprising for Karni Mata to FINALLY become what it was always intended to after ~17 years.
Its the BASIC level where it should’ve always been. India was supposed to be a jack of all and master of very very few.

They made the penalty of wood costs and high pop but forgot to give a compensating eco, neither a factory nor shrines nor some absurd OP unit or any absurd civ bonus.

NOT ONLY in treaty, EVEN in Team/Late games the eco was bad and WAS unsustainable.
(check final gather rate of Indian fields and Euro mills and estates)

As for Mysorean Rockets , yes they are better than brits rockets, hence the difference in name, they are different units and have different stats. Thought personally I wont mind a minor stat change in them, but then they wouldn’t be worth keeping in deck I suppose.

Yet I don’t see them widely used neither I see a purpose to use them so much. its a Fancy powerful unit that somehow tries to help deal with mass heavy Inf, one of major weakness India has.

Just cause the updates seem NEW and buffed on paper for age 2 doesnt mean they are not right for the civ as a whole. the changes were basic and needed.

And yes then there is this :

I dont think any change is needed.

Even still hell bent on having a change, maybe sepoy train time -1second and merge some new and old export/consulate cards together, as they are just too fragmented. and then maybe you can sprinkle a little stat change to Mysorean Rockets(IDK what but ok)

India needs adjustments in card, not some nerf or buff they have first time ever seen balance since 2005

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not true. Nobody thinks that way. IMHO, India is one of the better designed civs in the game with good all round capabilities.

What do you mean by always intended to be? This isn’t destiny.

Indian eco in supremacy is actually on par with good eco civs.

“on paper” would imply they are so in theory, but anyone who has played India or against them will tell you the Karni change to 15% is unwarranted and a bit extreme wrt supremacy gameplay.

Also, I see you’re coming from a treaty viewpoint, but this change has made India sleeper OP among the balanced civs as clearly mentioned in the OP under the same title.

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I dont see how its OP on supremacy when:

  • it needs resources to be near

  • Its just 5% buff, only important with a great amount of villagers; so lategame.

About Rockets…India needs wood shipments too, is hard enough to have them when fighting infantry masses.
Their economy is not that great when you see the unit costs; their gold income sucks

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I guess he refers that Karni was a meme of wonder by the fact that a single card is better. It didnt seem as a eco bonus but as a penalty

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Try asking any Non-India player. And try to reason if India is so good why not more people play with it. Just coz its a little difficult to play is not the reason, there are other civs which are difficult to play too.

YES! :slight_smile: the intended buff of karni mata was always as its now.

OR as he said it better than me :

NOT only treaty, even for a Team matches, which unlike a 1v1 supremacies, have a late game meta. I haven’t played treaty for a last few months untill the last update coz India was terrible in treaty, shifted to 3v3 4v4 ranked, with my team.

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This is all fine and dandy, but when are we buffing Elephants?