There are people more informed than I on this topic, but I’m pretty sure in the TOS when uploading a mod, you basically sign away everything and it becomes the intellectual property of MS. I could be wrong on that point tho.
1 Like
no. at most the historical battles combined are a campaign.
“Battles of the Forgotten Campaign Completed” was an achievement one could get in aoe2 HD, when completing all historical battles.
yes, there is no point in moving blame around. The correct action should be:
-apologize for miscommunicating
-fix the problem that this DLC doesn’t contain enough content (either by lowering the asking price to 25-30% or by adding 3 actual campaigns)
source? aoe2 doesn’t even publish sales figures/active player count/server costs. I have no trust left for them
are they? Here is the best they could have done in the past:
-content creators have been asking for an event calendar for years, it’s finally here, but even now it will only contain announced tournaments. what took so long? why can’t it containt blockers for unannounced stuff?
-communicate. literally any proper communication would be appreicated
-when a new patch/DLC causes major issues. apologize, roll back to the old version until fixed.
3 Likes
I could see someone trying to make that argument.
It falls flat for me for two reasons.
One, on the steam page for V&V, MS themselves doesn’t describe the collection as a campaign. Weird to me if they believed the collection to be a campaign that they didn’t call it a campaign.
Two, even if they had it’d be a very problematic definition. If any arbitrary collection of scenarios could be considered a campaign, then Ghengis 1, Saladin 2, Barbarossa 3, Joan of Arc 4, Atilla 5, and El Cid 6 could be considered a campaign. You could add up the number of all the scenarios there are in the game, run the combinatorics, and come up with an unfathomable number of campaigns.
How I explained it on Reddit, “five or six novellas telling the same story sequentially could be considered a novel if packaged together, but a collection of unrelated novellas isn’t a novel.”
Historical Battles is a collection of scenarios. Ghengis Khan is a campaign.
If you needed anymore convincing, google defines “campaign” as “an organized course of action to achieve a goal.” The historical battles have no collective goal and the course of action is not organized in any way.
Had they stuck to their guns, continued to call this “campaign focused” and called the collection a campaign on the steam page, I’d still 100% disagree, but I wouldn’t think they were lying. Being dumb and lying are different.
But the moment the true nature of the content was revealed, that it wasn’t a campaign, suddenly the tune changed.
2 Likes
1: Let’s agree to disagree. (I consider 1 scenario campaigns valid. Even if it’s a ‘historical battle’.)
2: Yeah, a simple apology is enough. Price wise, I dunno. They still had to do ‘work’. If it’s ‘worth’ that value, I cannot say for sure but, eh.
3: I am generally speaking here. HOWEVER, I ‘tried’ to work for them. (applied to job for them. I met a few of the team/learned a lot of their group. In the end, I could not handle it so, I gave up on it. (personal issues.) But from what I saw, the team is/was relatively small. (at the time and they are still hiring too. Forgotten Empires - Current Openings Unsure about now though.)
4: As stated above in 3, size/manpower. (assumptions.) Not to mention likely greed from MS. (Probably. I don’t trust companies anymore. They get away with too much these days. Although, I understand ‘some’ of their reasons…)
no, I think an apology without fixing the problem is empty. words are cheap, actions count
especially with so many broken promises “we have improved pathing”, “we have fixed crashes”
You are correct. (I dislike this aspect of companies though.)
The only acceptable thing to do here is a public apology and extend the DLC with 2-3 six scenario campaigns.
5 Likes
Absolutely. He is the scenario creator who most deserves a DLC on his own. I am very happy for him and think his open-worldish scenarios fit especially well for Vikings and players who want out-of-the-box scenarios.
I do fully understand that prices have to increase. But the marginal utility of additional civs decreases. For some players, it’s already too many civs, no one can remember all of them. So, the devs need to find revenue sources without adding civs. If they start selling cosmetics (icon pack, or say Castle graphics for old civs etc.), many fans will not like that (incl. myself). I think it’s time that they finally add new architecture sets and perhaps add Castle graphics for old civs piece-by-piece. But I don’t want to pay for that separately. If it comes at the same time as a DLC, players will be more open to pay higher prices, I guess.
Or at least lower the price of this type of DLC
3 Likes
That would cause another problem since some people have already preordered the DLC for that outrageous price.(the most delusional fans)
1 Like
steam can do partial refunds when a price gets adjusted before release. has happened with many other games before (total war pharaoh even did it a few weeks after release iirc)
2 Likes
I didn’t know that. So they have more than 2 weeks to do so if they have some decency left.
1 Like
Totally agree, but at the same they never released all AOE1 campaigns for ROR, and even those they did were done in a very lame way
Totally agree also, though when a DLC breaks something I think its a bit more trick. What would cause more damage, keep a broken DLC up while you rush a fix or take it away. Which one brings a bigger limelight to ones failings?
I dont know how they inside things work, as FE is part of another company, not a Microsoft kid like World’s Edge is, so I dont know how it would be to invest money on them to hire more people. But, looking what happened last year, they definitely need more people working on games. And, based on their communications since the DE’s, they really need more people in the communication departament, which is a WE thing.
4 Likes
yeah, slightly complicated by microsoft store sales. I don’t know if that also has an option like that
I always dislike when they don’t publish medias showing the content. No trailer for TMR, and here literaly nothing!
2 Likes
words are cheap, but my issue is with the lie, not the value proposition.
If they apologized for the lie that’d be enough for me, but YMMV.
Could they just lie in the future and issue a quick apology. Sure. IDK , I gues I’m in the let’s cross that bridge when we get there camp, but if you don’t trust corporations enough and feel some remediation is necessary to persuade them in the future not to lie, I really can’t find fault in that stance.
1 Like
So I got the idea to pull the transcript of the announcement from YT, to see if and how they used the word “campaign” in the announcement of this supposedly “campaign focused” expansion. I’ve attached the entire transcript for transparency but I’ll give you a rundown.
- you who have asked for more content, especially campaign content.
- The first ever campaign focused expansion
- I built dozens of custom scenarios beloved by most passionate campaign players.
- Resparks the sense of wonder and possibility when you first played the campaigns many years ago
- And for new players are those who haven’t dabbled in campaigns before. These scenarios may just defy your expectations on what an Age of Empires scenario is.
One is people asking for campaigns. so not describing the content of the dlc.
Two is stating the dlc to be campaign focused but has yet to describe any of the content using the word campaign. At this point he could have said it was “unicorn focused” and we’d have no information to prove or disprove that assertion. not impressed yet.
Three he’s saying he’s built things in the base liked by people who play campaigns, again not describing the content of the DLC.
Four references a feeling of when you played campaigns, again not actually describing the content of the dlc.
Five says people who haven’t played campaigns before, these scenarios (not campaigns, explicitly states scenarios TWICE) would dey expectations.
Somehow, someway, in an announcement for a “campaign focused” dlc, managed in a four minute video, to describe the actual content within the dlc using the word “campaign”, zero times.
Basically it’s campaign focused cause they say it is. they may as well say the icon packs are civilization focused, cause the only justification needed to describe something as something is if you describe it that way.
The only way for this “campaign focused” dlc to be focused on campaigns is if words have no meaning.
Oh they do a bunch of implying. They really want you to think of this stuff as campaigns. They sprinkle the word “campaign” in a couple times, to describe things that aren’t the content, but they couldn’t describe the content itself using the word “campaign” because there are no campaigns.
!!!Transcript Start!!!
Hello, everyone.
I’m Ramsey Abdulrahim.
Here at World’s Edge we’ve always believed that the community is the driving force behind the success of the Age franchise.
Over the years, we’ve partnered with community creators from streamers to scenario designers to modders and helped bring their ideas and passion into the games.
We’ve also heard from many of you who have asked for more content, especially campaign content.
We listened and I’m thrilledto announce Victors and Vanquished.
The first ever campaign focused expansion pack for Age of Empires II Definitive Edition.
It features 19.
Yes, 19 scenarios.
That’s more scenarios than any previous expansion for the definitive edition.
But more than that, I’d like to say victors and vanquished is a labor of love.
You see, before joining World’s Edge, I was a community scenario designer myself.
I built dozens of custom scenarios beloved by most passionate campaign players.
Now, in Victors and Vanquished, I’d like to share some of the very best and most popular of these works with the entire age community.
If you’ve played my scenarios before, you didn’t play these scenarios.
Each has been carefully updated and polished to reach the high bar you expect from the Age of Empires franchise.
We’re talking full professional voice acting.
We struck with our swords. (editorial note, pretty sure this was said in-game not by filthydelphia)
original music, rebalancing, hundreds of bug fixes and quality of life improvements.
We’re also talking five all new never before seen scenarios.
So let’s take a look.
It is your destiny to overcome the clans, unite Japan and rule.
In Victors and Vanquished, we want to go beyond the familiar and give you something new, something that resparks the sense of wonder and possibility when you first played the campaigns many years ago.
And for new players are those who haven’t dabbled in campaigns before.
These scenarios may just defy your expectations on what an Age of Empires scenario is.
In Ragnar, you unleash your inner Viking.
The Warriors beat their swords against Oaken Shield.
Send your war bands across the sea on a massive map of Northern Europe.
All big empires start from humble origins and yours will be no different.
Begin with raids to pay and recruit warriors, then capture jarldoms in Norway, Denmark and Sweden to grow your power.
As you rise to become king More possibilities are at your fingertips.
Use your achievements to unlock technologies.
Find powerful heroes, raid wherever you want, and even worship the gods for bonuses.
In Otto The Great you are surrounded by enemies.
Fearsome Vikings Horse-riding Magyars and stalwart Franks.
But your power is not absolute.
You have three #################
These can be your very best friends, helping you achieve your ambition to become Holy Roman Emperor, or they’ll be a rebellious thorn in your side.
Balance your power against theirs and use real time gifts to keep them in line.
Finally, in Oda ######### choose to playas one of six different unique factions.
Will you lead the Takeda and crush your enemies with the best cavalry in Japan?
Or will you command the Tomo and find your advantage in the arrival of strange people with new weapons?
Or of subterfuge and assassination is more your style, try the Mori clan and leverage your criminal network to recruit unsavory characters.
In Victors and Vanquished you tell your own story like never before in Age of Empires.
Victors and Vanquished is now available for preorder.
And we have a lot more coming forAge of Empires II.
This is only the beginning.
Will you be the victor or the vanquished?
1 Like
actually I expected they’d charge as much as they did, given that many gave in and bought MR DLC even with all the complaints people made with the price hike, this is especially after them “taking away the message” and then became silent soon after.
clearly theres enough people buying it and so they will do it again, and continue to do so, and then when theres a sale they will still be making bucks because it doesn’t cost all that much
either people dont buy it period, or complain and still buy then they’ll take it as it is an okay behavior regardless of what we all say
2 Likes
Man, this I don’t get. People act like MS (fucking Microsoft!!!) is an indie game studio who relies on crowdfunding to develop its games or, even worse, doesn’t know how to run a business (!!). And we’re not talking about an underrated game who has a cult following dwelling on some poorly designed forum. Some of my friends like this game and they’re not a regular player like me. MS has stakes at this, so do we. No need for us to care about them. I honestly can’t believe people buy something they don’t want from a corporation this big because they fear its next commercial step may be a failure. This is beyond innocent.
Well, I went off-topic but had to vent off about this. Now, back to your post 
I want to say I fully agree with your points.
I didn’t like the campaign-not-campaign V&V marketing move and though I can easily afford I would #### to pay way less. The new DLC pricing is in my opinion plainly greedy but AOE2 has my heart since the very dawn of this century. There are very few things I would like to see changed and in general I’m fully satisfied with the way the game is run and new content is added. I’m not opposed to any new civ as long as it makes sense (no Babylons vs. Bulgarians for instance) and I will keep buying DLCs as long as devs don’t pull off some hollywood ass fantasy like they did with AOE3.
I bought ROR to play the new campaigns and see for myself if those famed QOL improvements really improved a a game I really don’t rate nearly as high as AOE2. I liked seeing a new civ in AOE2 but I would not buy something like that again (e.g. AOE1 campaigns + Vandals in AOE2) unless new content is added to AOE2.
I hope the game keeps doing well and even for people to succeed financially but I have no hope they won’t try to fool us again.
6 Likes
It’s wild that with The Conquerors, we got a lot although we may have paid a lot for it which I would be glad to do again. I miss expansion packs where we got nearly half of a game’s worth of new content, not repurposed custom maps (no offense to Phillly). Honestly there should be a poll in the game to see what most people want.
2 Likes