New civ concept: The Tibetans

First of all, I don’t speak neither English nor Tibetan as my native language. So please bear with me if I make any grammar or puctuation mistakes.
This is just a conceptual suggestion, that’s why the thread will only address bonuses, unique units and techs. Specific bonus values and the tech tree can always be tweaked for balance later.


The Tibetans

Why the Tibetan empire?

-The tibetan empire is one of the most important empires in the history of asia and world history.
-Tibetan history is interesting enough to be part of Age of empires II.
-Tibetan culture allows for uniqueness and versatility in-game.
-Tibetans interacted with the Chinese, the mongols, the Abbasids and the Indians. They are material for fun campaigns, as both enemies and allies.


Civ concept: Lancers and siege.

-Aging-up grants 100 gold and 50 stone.
-Cavalry armor for free.
-Houses cost -X wood.
-Siege workshop units +X% attack.

Unique units

  • Rtakhrab Pai’dpung: SteppeLancer-like unit but as pierce-armored medium cavalry. These Tibetan lancers have a small attack bonus vs infantry and archer units.

Unique techs

  • Golden arrow (Castle age): Steppe and Tibetan lancers increase +X% attack of friendly units within their LOS, except their own type (lancers) and siege. This effect doesn’t stack.
  • Peacock plumes (Imperial age): Meele units generate X food when they attack.

Team bonus
Siege workshop units +X LOS

Civ tech
Tibetan Mastiff (Feudal age): For the Tibetans, farms regenerate HP. For all teammates, farms gain 2 attack and 1 range (both values unaffected by blacksmith techs). It can be researched at the mill.

Architecture: Tibetan (unique).

Historical background
Just if you are interested in reading it.

About the Tibetan empire:

What I wrote was too long again.
This was written by a Chinese player.

Economy

The Tibetan plateau was a mosaic of clans of mountain shepherds with simple nomadic organizations. They raised domestic animals like horses and dogs, and livestock such as yaks, pigs, and sheeps. For the Tibetans, it was important to train large and strong dogs -the tibetan mastiff- to protect their animals from wolves and snow leopards. Due to the harsh climate and their semi-nomadic lifestyle, their crops were limited. Tibetans cultivated peas, buckwheat, barley, etc.

Warfare

A rigid hierarchy developed in which the noblemen working for the Tibetan imperial administration were organized with the prime minister at the top, followed by the four chief ministers, then the ministers who held royal insignia granted by the tsenpo – turquoise for the most important, followed by gold, white gold, silver, brass and copper. All of these officials were drawn from the clan aristocracy. At the bottom of the hierarchy were the vast majority of Tibetans, the peasants and nomads whose way of life would remain largely unchanged until the latter part of the twentieth century. The Tibetan army had had to grow rapidly to keep pace with the startling expansion of the Tibetan empire, drafting able men from its conquered territories, from all social classes. The Tibetan Empire’s officers were not employed full-time and were only called upon on an ad hoc basis. These warriors were designated by a golden arrow seven inches long which signified their office. The officers gathered once a year to swear an oath of fealty. They assembled every three years to partake in a sacrificial feast. These golden arrows granted the officers the possiblity to rally their troops, attack, and defend at their own discretion. The Tibetan army could fight on several fronts simultaneously.
The soldiers of the Tibetan empire wore leather scale armor, steel chainmail, and bronze lamellar in layers. Some of these scales have been dug out of an ancient Tibetan fort in the Central Asian desert. They are tough overlapping rectangles covered with bright red or black lacquer and decorated with painted circles. According to some accounts, the Tibetan soldiers wore feathered plumes atop their steel helmets and carried battle flags on long straight poles. Elite soldiers and high-ranked officers wore peacock feathers as ornaments proving their leadership. Compared to the neighboring Mongolian and Chinese polities, the Tibetan lines of supplies were very strained. While on campaign, Tibetan armies carried no provision of grain and lived on plunder. Peacock plumed officers were in charge of supervising the process.
In the days of the Yarlung kings and the Tibetan Empire, the core of the Imperial army would consist of large armoured cavalry. Tibetan cavalry are described in the Tang dynasty Annals as armed with very long lances (mdung), both man and horse completely mailed except for the eyes, and invulnerable to arrows and strong bows. There is no suggestion anywhere that they charged at the gallop. The same Tang source describes them as fighting dismounted and arrayed in ranks. Though bow-armed they favoured close combat. Tibetans were skilled makers of siege equipment.
The Tibetans adopted siege machinery from the Arabs and the Chinese. They had a wide array of options for breaching enemy formations and defenses, but they preferred wall-mining, folding ladders, ballistas, and springalds. Tibetan sappers protected themselves inside wooden mobile shelters so they weren’t attacked while damaging wall foundations. Folding ladders were used to allow large groups of soldiers to take over walls. Tibetan ballistas were inspired by the Chinese ox-bow launcher but their design was improved years later to resemble Arab ballista machines. Springalds were built around a rectangular frame with inward swinging arms. These weapons could fire large bolts and stones.






Important figures

-Songtsen Gampo: The 33rd king of the Yarlung dynasty and the founder of the Tibetan empire.
-Gungsrong Gungtsen: The 34th king of the Yarlung dynasty and the second emperor of the Tibetan empire. He was the only son of Songtsen Gampo.
-Gar Tongtsen Yulsung: Prime minister, close friend and right-hand man of Songtsen Gampo. He was the scion of the clan of Gar, and also acted as regent when Mangsong was an infant. His clan became the protector of the imperial family.
-Mangsong Mangtsen: The 35th king of the Yarlung dynasty and third emperor of the Tibetan empire.
-Tridu Songtsen: The 36th king of the Yarlung dynasty and the fourth emperor of the Tibetan empire. The child emperor Tridu Songtsen was intimidated by Gar Trinring’s popularity and talent, so he betrayed general Gar Trinring and annihilated the Gar clan.
-Gar Trinring Tsendro: Second son of the prime minister Gar Tongtsen Yulsung. He defended Azha, and defeated the Chinese general Xue Rengui and a Chinese army of more than 100 thousand in Dafei river. He was forced to commit suicide after being betrayed by emperor Tridu Songtsen.
-Tride Tsuktsen: The 37th king of the Yarlung dynasty and fifth emperor of Tibet. After the annihilation of the Gar clan, the Tibetans lost almost all of their territory in central Asia to the Chinese.
-Trisong Detsen: The 38th king of the Yarlung dynasty and sixth emperor of Tibet. During his reign, the Tibetans launched the Siege of Chang’an.
-Tride Songtsen: The 40th king of the Yarlung dynasty and eighth emperor of Tibet. The tibetans captured Abassid troops, which caused a conflict with the Arabs.
-Tritsu Detsen: The 41th king of the Yarlung dynasty and nineth emperor of Tibet. He is known as one of the three Dharma Kings who brought Buddhism to Tibet. During his reign, Tibet reached its maximum expansion.
-Langdarma: The 42th king of the Yarlung dynasty and the last emperor of Tibet.

Languages:

Tibetan.

Possible campaigns:

-The unification of the Tibetan plateau.
-The expansion towards northern India.
-Battle of Talas: The Chinese with Karluk support vs the Abbasids with Tibetan support.
-The occupation of Chang’an from the Chinese perspective.

I’ve read many comments about how impossible it is that AOE adds Tibetans. I think players are misunderstanding the CCP censorship policy. The CCP bans anything that portrays China, or the party, in a negative way. Be it economically or politically. About the Tibet case, they don’t care about tibetan history, past events or battles involving Tibetans, or if ancient Chinese dynasties interacted with them. Not at all. They care about Tibet being separated from China in the present. They censor things that are related to the FreeTibet movement, or anything that implies Tibet will be emancipated in the future. To stop this from happening, the CCP has been trying to integrate Tibet and Tibetan people to the Chinese sphere over the last years. The Chinese government has been promoting Tibet and western prefectures where Tibetans live for turism such as Sichuan. At the same time, they allow big franchises like Tomb rider and Uncharted to portray Tibet and the Tibetan people. As long as AOE is respectful, historically accurate, and avoids any FreeTibet reference, then it’s very unlikely the dlc will be censored.

About the campaigns I proposed in this suggestion: 1. The most plausible out of them because it doesn’t involve China at all. There is no risk of censorship. 2. It’s plausible and could be the most fun. Besides it doesn’t involve the Chinese again, so there is no risk. 3. The battle of Talas wasn’t a conflict between China and Tibet in the first place. 4. It could be playable from the Chinese perspective, to make them look like the good guys against the Tibetan invasors. Furthermore, the Tibetan invasion was possible only thanks to the Chinese opposition faction that was against emperor DaiZong and opened the gates for the Tibetans when the Chinese emperor was in Luoyang. So the campaign could be about Chinese vs Chinese and Tibetans.
The mongol campaign is even more straightforward about invading China than any part of the occupation of Chang’an.

Source:
Thanks to google translate

-Buddha Prakash (2006). “Tibet, Kashmir and North India 647-747”. Journal. Himalaya Society Press.
-Bushell, S. W. (1880). “The Early History of Tibet. From Chinese Sources”. Cambridge University Press.
-Charles Bell (1992). “Tibet Past and Present”. CUP Motilal Banarsidass Press.
-Dragon’s armory (2018). “Tibetan Noble Cavalry” Dragon’s armory online.
-Encyclopædia Britannica (2021). “Tibet History”. Encyclopædia Britannica online.
-Weapons and warfare (2020). “Tibetan empire I”. Weapons and warfare online.
-Weapons and warfare (2020). “Tibetan empire II”. Weapons and warfare online.
-Wikipedia (2021). “Impero tibetano”. Wikipedia online. Italian.
-Wikipedia (2021). “Tibetan Empire”. Wikipedia online. English.

24 Likes

Was it tibet or tatars who fought with and later switched sides to the arabs?

It was the Karluks. Turkish-tatar people.

Why would farms have attack or range?

Pretty sure this is not possible to do and broken.

Could be exploited and broken again.

We have tatars ingame already.

Because it represents tibetan mastiffs. 2 attack will deal 1 damage most of the time. It’s just to chip away hp of enemies raiding your base. Not to kill.

I thought that folwarks mechanics could make it possible now. Welp, my bad.

Nah, because it depends on successful hits. Like keshiks. Besides, the value could be half or a third of the gold keshiks get.

What are you talking about? yes, they are in-game. Perhaps you think I want Karluks to be added?
Just to make it clear, Karluk mercenaries supported the Chinese first, then sided with the Abassids. The battle was basically the Chinese vs Abassids, Tibetans and Karluks.

So anyone getting close to a farm will loose HP? lets say you have farms around your tc as any normal person would do,this attribute automatically makes it similar to having towers around your TC.Mastiff is a dog so what would be the connection between a farm and a dog?

Sorry my bad I got confused about the factions.

Reading through the history side tibet seems to be good at siege.maybe give them 3rd upgrade to the scorpion as second uu?

is this what you’ve been talking about everyday since last week? you finally posted it lol.

Whilst I would really like to see them, Microsoft and FE would not dare add them due to a major political entity known as the People’s Republic of China, who have an intense hatred of any form of Tibetan identity, culture and history. If such a civilization would be added, AoE2DE would inevitably become an illegal product and thus a big chunk of the player base and key money generators for AoE2DE would be removed.

So I’d say just add them anyway and stop being a bunch of Kneelers.

Updates

Civ role: Fast raiding cavalry and plunder.
Civ concept: Lancers and siege.

-Aging-up grants 150 wood and 50 stone.
-Cavalry armor for free.
-Siege workshop units +X% attack.
-Can research Tibetan springald.

Unique units

  • Rtakhrab Pai’dpung: Steppe lancer-type unit but as pierce-armored medium cavalry. These Tibetan lancers have attack bonus vs archer units, and a small attack bonus vs infantry.

Unique techs

  • Golden arrow (Castle age): Steppe and Tibetan lancers gain +X attack.
  • Peacock plumes (Imperial age): Meele units generate X food when they attack.

Team bonus
Siege workshop units +X LOS

Civ tech
Tibetan springald (Imperial age): Unique upgrade to scorpions. Compared to heavy scorpions, springalds have +X attack, +Y meele armor, and +Z HP.

Architecture: Tibetan.

6 Likes

I think your suggestion is brilliant, I really want Tibetain Empire in game, Xi Chin Ping be damned.
The Tebetains will be superb, good work sir. Talas is a highly intreguin battle that I will enjoy recreating.

4 Likes

If tibetans/ khitans/uyghur/ jurchen is introduced, Its very hard to avoid enraging Chinese government no matter how you try to meet the censorship.

So if tibetans will be introduced, better introduce the other 3 civs at once.

Wont this be very broken?none stop food supply.

150 wood is too much, and 100 stone in the castle age is similar to the Sicilians.
For the economy bonus, I would make them start the game with 2 yaks (150 food for 1 yak), but -50 food.

I will also give bonus to their monasteries and monks, since Tibetan Buddhism is so important and iconic in their society.

  • Monasteries cost 75 wood and supply 5 population.
  • Monasteries can heal friendly units and convert enemy units just like a Monk.
  • Monasteries, Monks, Fervor and Sanctity are available in any age.
  • Team bonus: Monks move faster by 15%.

I prefer to leave this bonus for the Jurchens.
The Jurchen cavalry is known for the heaviest one in the medieval East Asia.

Also, the Tibetans should not have the Steppe Lancer since the Eurasian Steppe doesn’t include the Tibetan Plateau.

It just means “Armoured Horse Cavalry”. We all know the Tibetan army are mainly formed by their highland heavy cavalry, but can not present it by the full-upgraded Cavaliers?
Besides, It seems to overlap the position of the Tarkans which mostly are used to counter the archers.
There are already 10 cavalry UU in the game. I would like other types of UU, or cavalry UU with some special mechanic.

I had suggested the “Wuerdo” to be Tibetan UU.
The word Wuerdo ( འུར་རྡོ , rdo, urdo or 'ur rdo) refers to a kind of traditional Tibetan sling or slingshot. It is a shepherd’s tool in peacetime, but on the battlefield, it is a convenient and easy-to-use weapon since stones are readily available.
The Wuerdo can be a cavalry slinger unit, similar to Mapuche Bolas Rider of AoE3.
They may have attack bonus against infantry and camels as the supporters of melee cavalry, and most importantly having the low splash damage in a radius of 1.
Just for your reference.

They should not have the Steppe Lancer. The name is good but the effect looks boring.
I would like the effect to make scout cavalry line, skirmisher line and spearman line cost -40%. For balance, they would have no Hussar upgrade, Bracer and Infantry Plate Armor.

I had been suggested by someone in this forum before that the castle UT can be named to “Gongkhang Armouries”. The Gongkhang is a special room set aside for the worship of wrathful deities, where only the initiated monks of the monastery or nuns of the convent could enter. He said the Tibetan people would use the weapons stored there to defend monasteries and villages in times of emergency.

Broken. You may gain more food than you pay for light cavalry in the late game.

I would like to make the imperial UT named “Gelug”.
The Gelug is the newest and largest of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism. It may advance the Monasteries to Gompa. The Gompa is a conflation of a fortification, a vihara and a university associated with Tibetan Buddhism. In the game, the Gompa may have more HP, armor, LoS and work faster than the regular Monasteries, and most importantly it can attack enemies with arrow fire like the Harbor.

2 Likes

Uyghurs are the only one I cant see getting added and having a campaign about the Uyghurs themselves. Only way I can see it work is by renaming them on China, and prob is better just to add Gokturks instead. Tibetans however may get added somehow if you make sure to not mention the Dalai Lama and make a safe enough history section and base their campaign in the dark ages.

The other two csn be added easily tho

1 Like

We would need to introduce a Lama unit, which would be like a more powerful monk, adding another variation to the converting units (beyond the missionary). Maybe it could convert two units at a time? Instead of the usual one, reflecting the influence of lamas on even neighbouring societies like China, the Mongols, India when propagating Buddhism, etc? In addition to some of special cavalry and infantry with one of these being the UU. We should also see the developers introduce a new skin for Middle Eastern/Asian knights/cavaliers/paladins not the ridiculous ones every civ has to currently use. The Middle Eastern and Eastern civilisations which can create these could all use the same model to make it worth the time. It would naturally use a curved sword. But a sword nevertheless.

korean-cataphract

1 Like

Imo too close to ethiopeans bonus, most likely even stronger as opposed to ethiopenas immediately usable.

Quite strong bonus already, also for the early game.

Interesting. But potentially OP, needs to be figured out. When mangonels and onagers can one-shot even UU archery units and don’t need to be aimed as exactly against normal archers can make a huge difference.

Maybe redundand if they already have the other siege bonus?

Interesting. But also very dangerous. Steppe lancers with more pierce armor are especially dangerous against archers already. And the extra range makes them strong against melee aswell. Needs to be designed very carefully, otherwise it could become op very fast. Currently the comparably vulnerability against archery makes steppe lancers balanced. If they get additional armor, it would be needed to make them more vulnerable in melee fights in compensation.
I recently actually promoted to change steppe lancers the opposite direction, making them more vulnerable but increase the damage output. IMO steppe lancers snowball too hard currently and I think it would be easier to stop if they had less HP but more damage. It would make them better as an addition to standard cav formations for some extra punsh instead an “mass to win” unit.
If this is a UU it could have a comparably long training time to make sure it can’t be massed as easy. I think with high pierce armor it can be useful even in low amounts when mixed with standard steppe lancers (like few huskarls mixed in make goth infantry just stronger as they can tank all the arrows).

What about a monk that automatically “converts” the very first unit it is attacked by? But can’t convert like normal monks? (probably better healing skills than normal monks in the exchange)

To the fact, the Tibetan Buddhism was introduced by Tibetan kings from China, Nepal and India, combined with the local Bon religion. So really, it is Buddhism in other places that influenced Tibetans, not the other way around. :sweat_smile:

There can be an UU named Lama at Monastery and Gompa, maybe have 60 HP, heal faster and able to construct Monastery and Gompa. Having the longer range or converting two units at a time is too OP to actually be adopted.

The problem is that each civ can only have up to 2 UUs. If we choose the Lama at Monastery, there cannot be Tibetan Springald which replaces the Heavy Scorpion I guess.

The Tibetans were influential in Yuan China, the Later Yuan Dynasty and later were influential in Qing China as well. The lamas were powerful and influential religious and secular rulers. This point would be reflected by their powerful monks and upgrade in the Imperial Age to lamas. The Gompa should be their monastery upgrade which could be a defensive building, in addition to the castle. We would need a custom king for regicide games too. I would like to see the Mongols share the Tibetan build set from Castle Age onwards I think. There is a mod in AOE2HD which shows what this set could look like.

What about Lamas that are mounted and can heal units while moving? And they automatically convert the first enemy unit they are attacked by (retaining faith very slowly though).
I think this unit could be very useful in a Cavalry civ. But must come with a price though.

To be precise, Tibetan Buddhism mainly affects the Mongols and Manchus, and has little impact on the main society in China.

So you mean the Lama is upgrade from Monk. Interesting, and probably balance.

Basically just the copy of the Missionary. In my opinion, if we can put any useful effect into Missionary-like units, it should first be tried by Missionaries to help improve their miserable situation.