New Civ concept: the Venetians

That’s the point, the skirms are too slow to protect all of your ressources then. You need to split them which makes it possible to overcome them with numbers. Especially if you give venetians +150 gold.
Meso civs will have big trouble against this, also regarding their biggest advantage is usually their early game.
Against fast archers you need to have scouts, i don’t see any other options.

There are already other civs with even better FC times than +150 g would give you. Whith fish eco it usually delays your uptime, too. i don’t think the civ is a good fc civ, lacking a good knight line. Also the faster archers give you a nice powerspike which you should use in feudal.
I don’t see this civ in competition with franks, malay, berbers, saracens or other strong fc civs. Their feudal powerspike with the archers is where they would shine. Which is actually nice, i would like to see more civs which can get aggressive in feudal and bust this silly wall in fc tactic everybody is trying atm.
I’d like to see them given some interesting options in feudal (which includes a market abuse potential) but not as strong castle age options. There are not many civs arm which pose a huge danger in feudal, becaus tower rush is nerfed to the ground, which i can actually live with.
If you want to make them a strong fc civ they need a strong Knight line or UU, otherwise their fc becomes bottomly useless.

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Skirms can do the trick, true venetians archers could loop around the base to hit another point, but then meso’s skirms have to walk less to reach another point. Consider that in feudal it’s just 10% faster (it could be reduced to 5% if 10 it’s too much).

In castle then xbows have the same speed for rattan, and if really needed meso can add eagles, that are arguably better than scouts vs archers.

Yeah for sure there are faster FC civs, and for sure having bad knights hurt you, but still their FC would be above average, and the bonus helps you in a lot of situations (GC, drush, archers, scouts), but it’s effective only if it’s flexible and allow you all those options, otherwise it’s just a worse version of the lithuanians one (because food is arguably more important).

Yeah sure their archers are good, but if they are against a civ like viets or Koreans going for a feudal archers may not be that effective. This way you have at least the option of a decent FC into knights (they may be terrible but can still be decent vs some civs) into their UU.

Their archers and skirms are faster, and with that gild they could go time to time with even a 4/ militia drush. I think that they have enough options in feudal, and despite their overall stable, scouts in feudal are more than viable.

Their UU is strong, did you read its stats? It’s a FU knight with +1 atk and all upgrades right out of the gate.

@casusincorrabil we can give them the starting wood, it can be 150w and it won’t be that broken, if then we reduce the the archer speed to 5/10/15%.

I don’t see +150w and +150g that broken, on water maps are 2 FS for free, which isn’t a lot (Italians, vikings, japs have all strongher bonus for FS).

My worries are on land, where +150w is almost a barrack for free, or more walls, or some archers, though straight for archers isn’t a good idea, since 5% more speed doesn’t really make you archers immun to skirms as 10% might.

Could this work? This way meso civs would also be less vulnerable to faster archers.

Also, if you gave them just 75w is too similar to persians bonus in my opinion.

Probably, if you have them +150 of both wood and gold, you just make your drush a big faster (you build your barrack sooner), or you make your FC even faster (less wood to gather).

It could also be used for more archers if you go straight for them, but again, even with +5% speed I think that skirms most of the timesa are more than enough.

As for the market theme, I don’t think that there is an effective way of giving a bonus not too similar to the saracens ones (otherwise they would have given it to all other trading cultures, like portos or italians…).

Instead I could modify the university bonus to market and university techs are 50% cheaper, but it is more of a flavourful bonus instead of one that you can actually rely upon, so I don’t really see the point…

A marker discount is quite useless, maybe a discount on the buildings (or just on the university) makes more sense. A nice untaken bonus for these building is the capability of researching UTs (maybe you can give it to this civ).

Yes exactly. There are a lot of civs, especially Italians, that may have a buff that way, but it is already taken.

Btw (partially off topic), I think we should add a new discussion on the next balance for Italians in some days (you are my reference for this 11). I have tried with Indians…

I thought of discounting the university itself too, but it would be just 100w saved, which isn’t a big deal in the castle age.

Instead we could give them +150 starting wood along with +150 gold.

So finally I’ll post the details of the Galeass. It took more time than I expected, the difficult part is that water balance have a lot less room than land balance, basically your ship is either a version of the galeon (like longboats or caravels) or if the fire ships (so like turtle ship or the Galeass here described). Still, I think that I was able to create a balanced and quite unique UU.

The Galeass is a water UU of the venetians.

Cost: 120w 60g
TT: 100s (50s factoring in the dock bonus)
Elite: 800f 700g

Stats:
HP: 120 (160)
Atk: 16 (20) +1 per secondary projectile
Projectiles: 5 1 deal full damage, the others 1
Range: 4 (5)
RoF: 3.45
Bonus damage: +2 vs ships and buildings
MA 0
PA: 8 (10)
Speed: 1.3 (1.35)
Castle (imp)

So the main idea is that the Galeass is that it’s an expensive and slower fire ship, but it compensate with more HP, armor and range. It also have the same attack animation of an organ gun, but with less atk (still more than the average ship).

If the caravel is the scorpion of the sea, the Galeass is the onager/OG of the sea.

Now I know that it may seem OP, but hear me out. In castle age, venetians, compared to other water civs, don’t have much. They do have faster working dock (which can help you get your mass faster and save a bit on docks) but as resources they are far behind.

They don’t save resources on upgrades or ships (like Italians or vikings), they don’t have an eco bonus (like vikings free WB-HC or japs and malay fish) and they can’t even age up that faster (like Italians or malay).

They can only get to water sooner on dark age (depending if they get the +150w or not…) and they can get aggressive in feudal, but in castle those bonuses fades off in favor of who can field more ships, either thanks to a discount or to a strong eco. So if with venetians they fail to get critical advantage between feudal age and castle age, it’s basically GG.

The Galeass help you that way, if you were able to get a small advantage in resources, you can spend them into getting you a strong water unit with a spread atk and and that can also act as a meatshield for your mass of WG/galeons.

Of course, I’m waiting for you feedback.

220px-17th_century_galleass
sanlorenzo1-1

I’m also almost convinced to bring back the +150w at the start bonus along with the +150 gold and the other bonuses.

I don’t think that it’ll break them making them OP, and most of the new civ after they are released they are always OP, and the in the case fixed afterwards, so this may be the same case.

Though, I’ll admit that just more gold at the start was more original (more wood at the start already exists for persians). That’s what is mainly holding me back on this bonus.

It seems more a late game option, so I guess it is fine if it is a bit superior. It would be the main late game option for a civ supposed to be a water civ. I think it is fine in case a small tweak of the stats can be applied, but as first release it can work.

I like the idea of a late game fire ship.

This is just 3x Aztecs. It is not so original imo…

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Original in the same measure that +150 food was original for lithuanians and not 3x half persians bonus.

At this point a bit of overlap is inevitable.

Still, the important thing is that it’s not OP.

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Unless you think out of the box or start adding armour classes… Example a low hp low damage FAST ranged ship with a big attack bonus vs fishing ships and cannon galleys. Its purely for raiding or sniping cannon galleys.

Or a variation of the demo ship (lower damage but even more resistant so it can actually counter blobbed galleys)

Your ship looks cool, but with such small variety at sea i have no idea how it would fair in 1v1 compared to TGs where res is abundant. Or in open water vs tight water maps… Could be useless in open water due to its low speed (kiting for days) and OP in smaller water maps due to not being able to kite. How would you counter it? Not fire ships?

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Is the OP the final draft? Still 150g and wood?

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Oh f***, I intend to nerf the archer speed (5/10/15% instead of 10/15/20%) to compensate for the +150 wood but I saw now that I forgot about it.

Thanks you for making me notice it, I’ll fix it as soon as I can (I don’t know why, but every time I try to modify the first post from my smartphone, it bugs out, I need to do it from my PC…).

However to answer your question, yes it is both extra wood and gold. If it’s OP, the numbers can be reduced a bit, like up to 125, 100, or 75, or some combination of these numbers.

It’s not easy unfortunately to find an useful and balanced water UU.

I thought of playing around with ship armor a bit, but it’s not really easy.

The idea is to use them backed by galeons, so to support it. Of course it’s stronger on smaller water maps, when you can’t micro a lot (like the TS) but it’s useful in open water too, since you can have a slow but steady unit that can pressure your docks while acting as a meatshield.

Basically, it’s a kind of upgrade on the fire ship, but more expensive and a bit slower. Like fires, they are vulnerable to demos.

Well, I tried to design the unit as closer to the historic version of the ships as much as I could (they were a fortress on water), but you first idea may work too.

I also thought that to compensate their stats, demos and towers may have a bonus damage vs them, but I didn’t include it because I wasn’t sure about it.

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Ok, the civ is complete, so basically I don’t have anything more to share, except for one thing.

Some time ago with the civ I also thought of a campaign. I made 4 full scenarios, and I also made an old topic in the modding section of the forum asking for help into making it a mod.

Unfortunately, I had to format my PC, and I lost all the scenarios and will to do them over again (maybe some day I will…).

Still, I’ll share here the concept for the campaign, in the case the civ will se the light of day, or in the case some else decide to make a mod out of it.

The campaign would be based around the story of the city of Venice along the years that shined. From it’s foundation, to its decline.

It would have 6 missions, and they would be:

  • The foundation of Venice:

During the last years of the crumbling Wester Roman Empire, between huns and goths invasions, in the north Italy some Roman citizens and soldier seek refuge from the onslaught.
You start by escaping from the city of Aquileia besieged by non other than Attila itself, you try to flee for the ERE, but you find the dock destroyed. So you roam nord Italy gathering more refugees by passing to nearby settlement and fighting off enemy raiders, while at the same time escaping from the main army. You see the fall of the cities of Altinium and Patavium before finding a transport for the island of the lagoon, where you can rebuild.
You are in the dark age for the whole time, but you can train feudal age units time to time (trought building that you are able to control for small periods of time) and you can get feudal age techs throught triggers (some secondary and objective).
During your roaming, you’ll find some outposts that you will take control. Those outposts will give you several things:

  • Fuedal militay units and vills (and 2 monks well hidden in the map)
  • Military buildings and house, to train feudal units
  • Eco building with some resources to gahter. Example; a mill with some berries, or a lumber/mining camp with some trees/mines.

That way, you can further train some units and catch some breath time to time. You can also try to defend the settlement for some time, but sooner or later the huge psot-imp army that are tailing you will ghet there, and you’ll be forced to leave it with all your military and vills.
During this mission you are costantly moving, your vills can’t build anything, but can gather resources when they find a gathering point. You’ll be able build a TC only when your reach the island of Venice (a triggher will give you the resources) so it’s imperative that at least a vill reach the island.
You’ll also pass through 2 under siege cities. Fortunately, the enemy will be more busy razing to the ground those cities to pay attention to you.
You start with 6 FU legionaries and 4 FU arbs. Those are the stroghest units that you’ll ever have, so you need to be careful with them. Also, all enemy have heresy, so you can’t convert anything.
While passing to a huns’ camp, you’ll get control of a relic cart, that you can take to Venice. This is an easter egg of a legent that says that the throne of Attila was smuggled to an island while fleeing.

  • The city on water

Years have passed since the fall of the WRE, under the bizzantine empire you were able to resettle the mainlan, but now longobards and magyars rampage through north Italy, and a new empire is lurking towards you city.
You start with 3 settlements, the main one on the Adriatic coast (Chioggia) is under heavy attack by the longobards. Your other coast settlement is under attack by magyars raiders (Eraclea). Your third settlement (the smallest) is located on the island of Venice (Rialto), if you are unable to defend your other 2, you can retreat here and defend it with ships (both longobards and magyars can’t either build an eco nor have ships), but this island provides few resources, with the exception of fish. You start in feudal age, and can get to castle age, but not to imp.
To win, you first need to kill the longobards settlements (you can also kill the magyars, or leave them alive and hire them as mercenaries later on).
When you defeat, franks will try to invade you, unlike the other enemies, they have both a navy and an eco, and are in imp (every one else is stuck in castle). To defeat them, you need to navigate the rivers and destroy first their docks to avoid an invasion of the island. Then you need to destroy their castle on an hill and defeat their army.

  • The other side of the Adriatic:

The venitians, after after acting as both bastion and a bridge for west and east Europe, now look to expand their ever-growing commercial interests in looking at the other shore of the Adriatic see.
You start with just few ships and soldiers, mainly xbows, and you need to one by one take all the Istrian villages, some will submit peacefully, some you will have to kill their garrisons first. Those villages will give you the control of docks, markets, houses, a blacksmith, a university, barracks and SW. You don’t have an eco, you can’t either train fishing ships, but you can trade with docks and market (you can train trade cogs and carts) and then buy food and wood. You can’t either train military units, you can only hire (train) slavic condos at the barracks, rams in the SW, and build ships in the docks (both get more upgrades, including druzina for condos, further with more objectives completed). After you conquered all the Istrian villages, you will steadily get reinforcements in the form of groups of 3 fire ships and 12 xbows, or 8 pikes and 2 rams, or 2 monks and 1 trebs.
Through all the mission you are stucked in castle age, but you get some upgrades (bracer, chemistry, siege ram…) and trebs through triggers.
After that, the city of Zara contact you, and agree on submitting to the authority of Venice if you eliminate the treat of the dalmatians pirates. They have a number of fortifications, castles and krepost both on island and on the mainland (to defeat them, you need to destroy all towers, kreposts and castles), since you don’t have access to the CG, you need to slowly take island by island with rams and trebs. When you finished with them, you take control of the surviving building, and you are contacted by an emissary from the ERE.
Since the city of Zara and the dalmatian coast are old territories if the bizzantines, they decided to support your claim only if you help them defeat the normans invasion of the balkans. For that you need to destroy all transport ships, trade cogs and harbor (you may want to left at least one dock, to keep trading with them afterwards) in order to cripple their supply lines. Here you need to be quick, or the the normans may decide to counter attack your new possession with ships and raiding parties. When you defeat them, the bizzantines renounce their claims and tribute you with an large sum of gold.
Lastly you need to claim the city of Zara, except that now they step back from their world, and allied themselves with the kingdom of Hungary, which keeps sending large groups of cavaliers, xbows and onagers regularly to defend the city.
You need of course to besiege the city and kill any Hungary soldier within, and at the same time to bring 20 of your soldiers inside it.

So here it is the second part of the campaign on Venice with the 3 new mission, starting with the most infamous moment of the story of Venice, the fourth crusade.

  • Fourt Crusade

After years of submissions and fealty to the ERE, you turn against Constantinople when the occasion presents under the form of an exiled prince, and of a huge crusade army that have a debt with you.
You start by besieging the capital of the bizzantines empire itself. Your crusader allies (franks, teutons, and maybe burgundians and sicilians too) block the city from the mainland, besieging the huge walls, while you with your huge fleet and some allied troops (in the form of frank and teutons paladins) took quarters into the the Galata settlement, the other side of the Golden Horn. You start in imp.
You have a small eco, but a huge fleet and army. Your first objective is to destroy the bizzantines fleet and rase 3 coastal castles (you can boom, but it’s advisable to rush), 2 you can destroy them with CG, but you need to disembark to destroy the third.
Meanwhile, your allies will try to breach the main walls, and keep the defenders busy. Time to time each of them will help you by giving you some cavalry units.
After that, you need to breach the walls and escort the bizzantine prince to palace, where he can be crowned, for that, you need to make your way against the bizzantines army, and the formidable varangian guards (vikings and slavs infantry).
Once the new emperor is on the throne, a ceasefire beghings (the old emperor flee with the imperial treasure). He tribute you some gold, but it’s not nearly what he promised you for having him crowned, so the runs for spoils of war begins. So the ostilities start again, your objective now is to gain what the bizzantines still owe you in the form of relics, trade carts (emperor in a barrel) and relic carts. You need to conquer 10 of those scattered around the city and bring them over to your Galata headquarters. Meanwhile, you need to punish the young emperor by capturing him (he’ll seek refuge in a fortified imperial palace). You also have the option of paying the varangian to have them desert the bizzantines and abandon the city. Once you have 10 artifacts and the emperor once again, you win, and you split what remains of the bizzantine empire with your allies.

  • The battle for Venice

After years of rivalry with Genoa, they decided to strike you at the very heart of your reing. After they took the stronghold at Chioggia they locked you inside the lagoon that kept you safe for centuries. So you need to barricades the channels and arm you citizens, while you wait for your fleet to return from the east.
So you start with the whole city of Venice, and the islands of Giudecca and Murano under your control, but you are surrounded by the enemy fleet and any other land territory is occupied by the genoese. You have a huge amount of resources, but few ways to gather more. You don’t have any space for farming, but you can fish. You have small mines of gold and stone, but not nearly enough to bring you to victory, and you don’t have any wood to chop. Also, with the exception of the main island and the Istrian outpost, al other land territories are connected by shallow water, so both ships and land units can move freely.
So after you fought off the first wave of warships, you need to find a way to get more resources. To get gold, you can trade to with a venetian outpost on the Istrian peninsula (where you can also hire FU druzina condos as mercenaries). In order to do that, you need to fight of the blockade of the lagoon a get to open sea and start sending trade cogs (and protect them).
To get wood instead, you need to secure an access to the river to the north, by destroying the enemy ships there. After that, it’ll timely spawn an allied transport ship, that you need to protect until it reaches the safely of your arsenal in the main city (then they tribute you 1000 wood each time).
For stone, you need to buy it, for food, you can fish or use fish traps. You start in castle age and can reach imp.
Lastly, at the edges of the map, there are some relics, and feritorias. The latter are controlled by the genoese, but if you destroy the towers around them, you can take control of them (some have just keeps, other from fire towers and fortified towers that can even kill ECG).
After you re-took some control of your supply lines, you receive reinforcements, in the form of both ships and soldier (stradiots, arbs and BBC). With those and the new units that you are able to train, now the genoese from predators becomes preys. You now have to siege and raze to the ground the stronghold at Chioggia (made by fortified towers, fire towers, castles, feritorias, barracks, ranges, siege workshops and docks, they don’t have an eco, but have DM resorces and feritorias) which is heavily defended. The position of the stronghold is between the lagoon and the open sea, so they can treaten both the wood and gold supply, other than the main city. Since they are Italians in imp, you need to act quickly before they become too strong. Also, when you receive the reinforcements, they get tributed resources and reach imp (they start in castle age like you) to make them even more dangerous. When you are able to destroy completely them you win the mission.

  • The siege of Famagusta

After dominate the Mediterranean for centuries after defeating both the bizzantines and your Italians rivals, a new treat appears at the horizon, the Ottomans. In order to protect you interest, you form the Holy League with the Genoans and the kingdom of Spain, creating one of the biggest fleets that the word has ever seen, but will it be in time to save the venetians island of Cyprus, besieged by the turks.
You start with a small number of units, arbs, HC and condos, with some saboteurs (the heroic unit from the last mongol mission not the petard). You are conducting a daring sorty outside of the walls of the city and behind the enemy lines, you goal is to protect the saboteurs and use them to destroy 5 objectives (gunpowder stocks, siege workshops and grain deposits) killing some enemy guards and avoiding the main army (you can use the condos to snipe the janissarys). After the last objective is destroyed, you are discovered, so you make your way to a trench on the front lines, where you reconnect with another raiding party and you need to kill the BBC that are hammering your fortifications.
After that, the turks counter attack you with cavalry and HC, so you need to laid a trap for them. You can use your faster moving arbs and HC to lure the enemy charge from where you are, to a hill with some trees between the turks camp and the city of Famagusta. Once the enemy are between the 2 patches of trees, from them stradiots charge down hill into the enemy army (between your remaining foot soldiers and the stradiots, you should be able to win but without too many soldiers letf).
After this successful engagement, you retire inside the city, since you still suffered heavy losses. The city is an “almost-square” with the sea on east, and a castle on the south-west angle, with its own walls. On the north-west angle there is fortified tower. 2 FT are also present at the north and south of the coast were the city docks are. Lastly a castle protect the access to the dock, being between the main city square and the docks. You have any kind of building that you may need inside, with some BBC, pike and arbs/HC left in defense of the city. You also have some vills, fishing ships, galeons, fire ships and a galeass. You are in castle age and can get to imp.
There are some segments of the city destroyed and in rubble, there you can mine stone to repair or rebuild your fortifications. You can farm, but you don’t have a lot of space, so it’s better to fish. There are also some wood and gold inside the city, but it’ll run out soon. In order to get more, either you send vills to collect the ones outside the city, or you conduct more sorties, and you destroy several trade workshops behind the enemy camps. Every TW destroy tribute you 500 of each resource. For that you can either change the enemy trenches, or use transport ships to loop around.
So once you take control of the city and you need to last as long as you can, for that you need to avoid that the enemy brings to many units inside the city’s main square. If they do, you have 1 minute to kill them or force them out otherwise you lose. You need to survive for at least 40 minutes this way.
The turks attack in three different way:

  • By sea: the easiest attack to repeal, since on sea you have a more decisive advantage. The turks will trying to unload some cavaliers and xbows inside the city, accompanied by galleon and a ECG. This is the only kind of attacks that you can definitely stop by destroying their 2 docks (one north and one south of the city), but it’s also the one that bugs you the less, so you need to weigh if it’s worth the risk of investing too much on this.
  • By a massive bombardment: in this case, the turks will start hammering your wall and buildings with their BBC, accompanied by janissarys. In this case you need to sorty out of the city to destroy all the BBC. (Both turks and venetians can use all siege weapons with the exception of trebs, who are blocked for both, to avoid having a turtiling treb war).
  • By storming the walls: in this case the attack will start with the turks that’ll send forward some siege rams and petard to destroy your walls and fortifications. You need to quickly kill them, because soon after a wave of janissarys, 2HS and hussars will follow, trying to storm the city and reaching the main square.

When you will have reached your 35th minute of defending the city (so with 5 minutes remaining) all your walls (stone or palizade) will be automatically destroyed, and you won’t be able to build anymore defensive building. This time will also coincide with a massive with an all-in attack, with hussars, janissarys and 2HS.
Again, you’ll need to survive for another 5 minutes. After that you’ll win, but the game won’t stop there, if you want can keep playing and see how far you can go each time. To have the game stop you either have to be utterly destroyed (the main square objective does not work anymore after 40th minute) or you need to resign, symbolizing the surrender of the city after a year long siege.
Despite losing Famagosta and the island of Cyprus, the venetians still managed to buy time for the Holy League fleet to assemble, and to punish the the turks by defeating their fleet at Lepanto, stopping their expansion at least for now.

NOTE: If the venetians would be even added as a civ in the game, they should become the player civ in the historic battle of Lepanto (instead of Spanish). In fact, even if it was an habsburg to have the command, the war was started by the venetians and they brought more than half of the ships to the battle.

Sorry if I edited and post several times the same campaigns posts, I just wanted to have them all grouped together and I didn’t had the time to write all of them together.

The 2 last post are the definitive ones, I removed all older posts.

I’ll link some videos of some historic channels that explain better the historical context of some of the events that on what I based my civ design and campaign.

If you are interested, I can link more of them.

(This is a bit of sideline, but still worth adding since it explains the Venice origins a bit and their involvement in the bizzantines-normans wars, which is featured on the 3rd mission)

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Amazing job man! This is some really great work. I was skeptical at first about another European civ, but this makes a lot of sense. I like the UU as well, the hammer is badass, and docks providing population because of its connection to Venice being built on water is spot on. How about for fun they have a bonus for building faster on shallows?
For the UU I would say 90 gold is pretty high. Maybe nerf the strength a little and make them 20 f 70 g? Overall I really like the idea. Do you know any middle eastern civs they could add?

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Thanks man, I appreciate it a lot.

Mmm I already made that their docks built faster every time, I didn’t thought of an bonus for just a tipe of terrain since it would be the first of its kind.

Still this may be a good idea for an eventual nerf if they docks reveals to be too strong and needs to be re-adjusted.

The idea for the stradiot was that every single units it’s a huge investment, but since you don’t need to invest in any tech for cav you can basically train them more easily. Consider that every castle age blacksmith tech that you skip its more than a stradiot, so it’s about 5 stradiots for free just like that.

Then together with the fourth crusade UT, it becomes 5 free stradiots for each relic that you grabbed. And those are FU knights with +1 atk basically.

I suppose we could reduce the gold cost an add a small food cost, it would be more easier to balance for sure, but I personally liked the idea of gold only units (we have food only units and a wood only unit).

Still, 20f 70g is to consider if the gold cost becomes too difficult to balance.

Eh, good question… I’m not sure enough to answer you.

I’m italian, and live near Venice, so that’s why I know a lot about its history (that and my natural curiosity).

I have some ideas for a eastern civ but it’s not my “area of expertise”, so I’m not sure if what I have in mind is a worth addition or not.

I started this topic because this was an old design concept of mine since before the forgotten DLC, and with the LotW DLC coming, I thought that it could be cool now a DLC about the Silk Road.

Venice was at the end of it, but I’m not sure what other middle eastern (or far eastern) civs may be added with the venetians that aren’t already on the game…

@JonOli12 maybe you can help me out on this one?

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Saracens, Persians, Byzantines and Turks mostly cover the major Middle East power of the time. Under the Caliphates, the are was very centralized, and it is hard to design any civs that would actually play much different than what we had.

A good case can be made for Nubians, as an Archer + Camel civ taht would be different to Saracens, and I have made a moch Teck Tree for them in the past, based on both the Christian and Muslim periods.

There is also the Khwarezmians, but they would have to be a Knight focuse civ, and not only does the game have enough of those, the Persians already stand for the Middle East Knight civ.

A lot of people would say Egyptians, Kurds and other groups or entire Caliphates, but those all fall under Saracens already, which have an Egyptian UU and a Kurd-lead campaign, and cover basically all of the non-Berber Caliphates and Emirates.

I would love for the Georgians to be added, however, and they would fit in a Silk Road DLC, along with Tibetans or Khitans.

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The copt egyptians can be different from the sarecens I guess.Libiyans would also be an option but not sure how they would differ from berbers or sarecens.

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Make it 40% as 50% is very over-powered.

I strongly disagree with this one as they are two very important techs especially since the UU only costs gold.

At least, give them Cavaliers and Bloodlines.

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