I think that the civ could initially have TR, then if it reveals to be OP lose it. In the end, faster moving is a bit less strong than more range *(like britons) *, at least in my opinion.
But it’s also true that the last UT gives them +1 attack, so probably they would be fine even without TR.
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
Difficult to know, for now new DLC haven’t been neither confirmed or denied. On paper, there is room in the game for more civs, and after the LotW DLC, I hoped that they would return into Europe for the new civs.
Maybe the venetians could fit into a Silk Road expansion, along with other European-Asian civs that were along it.
One thing that makes me hope, is that now that I finished all the campaigns on hard (comprised LotW) I still don’t have that 100% campaigns completed, but just 96%, as before the last DLC. So probably there will be new campaigns and hopefully new civs, hopefully venetians will be one of those.
No idea, but I would guess that most of time/budget goes into making campaigns scenarios and designing new art assets (if present). In principle having a DLC with just new civs which employ existing assets (except skins for UU, wonders and maybe castles) should be fairly quick and low on cost.
As you can see they used mainly spears and swords as infantrymen, and their marines were armed with archers (and xbows after).
The second soldier to the right (in the second picture) was the other option for their UU, an heavy infantry soldier armed with a hammer and shield. It should have worked similarly to the stradiot, as a mercenary (who didn’t require any upgrades or techs) but there was also the option for giving it an area of effect damage, similar to the cataphract.
You know, looking at this makes me feel like Venetians could be more interesting as a naval and infantry civ instead of a naval and archery civ. Lots of potential for infantry UU. Personally, I would really love to see more heavy infantry in the game.
The infantry UU is a super viable option, but I think that the core of the civ still need to be the archers, since that was what they used for their amphibius battles (as shown above).
Still, I’m thinking of potential changes in the civ desing, especially after the most recent balance changes (lol, they stole my cheap uni bonus for the italians), so some changes may come…
They would make for a fabulous naval civilization, I just wonder if the devs would think of putting more emphasis on water battles in a future DLC. This is something the game is missing at the moment.
Docks works and are built 100% faster.
The old writing didn’t really explain mathematically correctly what I had in mind. Basically all times for building, training and researching related to the dock are halved.
Starts with +50g (so 150g in total).
Starts with +50w (so 250w in total):
I reduced the starting resources (for now…) by 100 resources each. Since in general, it seems that now new civs are released underpowered instead of OP. It’s still strong and help for early docking and archers. Another solution could be to revert the bonus to just +100 or +150 gold, with or without the wood bonus as the beginning, so I’ll think about it.
Archery range units move 5/10/15% faster in feudal/castle/imp.
I removed the uni techs discount bonus, since that was basically given to the Italians, so now with the starting resources reduced and without the uni discount, there is room to makes some more changes.
Team bonus:
Docks provides 5 pop.
This is referred to the city that was literally built on water. Also, the workers of the arsenal, used to live inside or near it, for them to be more efficient.
I think this is too strong for water. Training units in half of the time is basically a guaranteed win over the opponent in feudal. Maybe keep the 100% built faster and have another bonus like
Docks work 10/20/30% faster from feudal.
Would it not be better to just start with extra wood (say, 150 w)? This is basically a free dock already, but can also be used for other things like early barracks or farms.
What would the UUs and UTs be btw? I imagine you want to include a ship UU and a land UU for the Venetians.
The point is, that it’s their only water bonus, along with more resources and their water UU. They don’t save resources like vikings, portos or italians.
I also wanted to make the bonus different from the persian bonus.
I thought of that, but I wanted to avoid making their start too strong on maps like nomads, especially after seeing that they nerfed the sicilians too.
Considering that when you build dock, is like building a house too, on hybrid maps you can already build a dock and a fishing ship right away.
But the wood bonus could be increment, as long as it’s incremented the gold bonus too.
Those haven’t changed, they are described in the first post and then each UU and UT have it’s own dedicated post.
Though, there is still an argument for use a infantry UU instead of a cavalry UU.
Yes, but if it is 40% straight away you cannot do anything against venetians. They will simply outproduce you right away once they hit feudal, destroy all your ships and then docks. Unless you take away fire ships completely from them, I think the bonus needs to be scaled.
I think an infantry UU would be more interesting (maybe also fitting for the Venetian army?), but maybe it’s just my personal bias, given that out of the 6 last new civs 5 were cavalry ones…
I guess it could be scaled, but there are 3 aspects that need to be respected:
The bonus has to start in the dark age
The bonus in imp have to be at its original full power, so dock that works 100% faster (halving the times).
And of course the building speed isn’t changed.
So the bonus may be:
Docks are builded 100% faster, and works 20/40/60/80% faster in dark/feudal/castle/imperial age(so at least it becomes 100% faster with shipwright).
So the times are at least halved only in post imp, but at least you have a decent bonus in the early ages too.
The idea was that their stables were terrible (lacking cavalier, BL and the second armor) but their UU was good because they have the stats of a FU knight (cavalier for the elite) but weren’t affected by the general upgrades for cavalry.
But the same mercenary theme, may be applied to a infantry UU too, or with a small AoE damage. It’s enaugh to tweak a bit the cav tech tree a making it a bit less terrible.
The cavalry UU should have been a balkan mercenary, the infantry UU would instead be venetian soldier coming form its overseas colonies. So maybe it would a bit more “venetian” (the 2 options are below).
Anyway, this Civ would be a archer and infantry civ, their cavalry UU would have been an exception. But a infantry UU makes sense too.
Still, archers would be their main unit.
It’s way too much, unless to plan to exclude all warships from that bonus. How would you ever win against venetians on water? It could work if it was a UT, like chivalry or perfusion, but straight 40% extra production speed right from feudal is insanely strong.
No everything is included. The point is that you can train ships faster, but don’t have any eco bonus. You can mass you galleys sooner, but you won’t have the resources to spam many more than a vikings player.
If you look at all civs who have the 20% speed bonus on a building, they are all coupled with some eco bonus or discount on the units affected. This wouldn’t be the case for the venetians. Even franks who have that 40% speed boost, it’s also backed by a strong food eco. Perfusion is coupled with an insane discount. So 40% would actually be roughly on pair with civs like Italians, who can start training fire ships earlier, or vikings, who can spam cheaper docks and galleys.
But I guess that if it’s revealed to be too strong it can be tuned down, maybe to 20/30/40/50%, and 70% with SW, but I would first try with 20/40/60/80%.
The stradiot is similar to what I suggested here, but mine is a bit more unique, at least in my opinion.
The spadaccino (swordman) doesn’t seem much unique, I prefer the infantry with a pole-hammer and a shield, since we don’t have something like that in the game.
The condos was already given to the Venetians, if the condo will be transformed into a regional unit.
The work barque I don’t like. I don’t like the idea of sea walls, and historically it wasn’t a thing for Venice. The repair may be useful, but onestly, unless it’s super cheap, it’s always better to spam more warships. I prefer the Galeass.
But I like the idea that if you prioritize the mainland or the colonies you get different UU and bonus, just it’s not a thing in DE.
As for the bonuses, mostly aren’t that original:
The free light cav is already a Turk bonus, and venetians didn’t really use much light cav.
Cheaper docks and markets may be somehow unique, but it depends on how its balanced, since it’s a mix of vikings and saracens bonus.
Demos +50% HP is the chinese bonus, and venetians didn’t really used demos, they used fires, so maybe fire ships have +50% HP is better and more historically accurate.
The Galeass as an upgrade to the galeon may work, not like there but as a UT, but there aren’t a lot of stats that wasn’t touched by already existing bonuses, and a new unit model may be cooler.
The TB of docks working 20% faster isn’t bad, but if you put it as a standard bonus, you can make it stronger.
As fort the UTs:
The arsenal is a mix of the aztecs old carry bonus, and portos carrack UT, but it gives me an idea…
The more food on fish traps pales in front of malay fish traps, and a similar thing happenes with more food on farm and sicilians farms (not that Venice have much farm space…).
The bonus damage for LC against siege is good, but again, Venice never had much cavalry, so it would make sense to simply give a bonus damage to the stradiot.
Then there are other things that I don’t understand how they should work, but probably they were supposed to work on bigger pictures mod, with similar meccanics for other civs, which isn’t the case for DE.
Still, it gave me a couple of ideas that’ll share in the following post…
So after @Mahazona and @Exradicator suggestions I have some more ideas for changing the bonus and UTs.
Docks are built 100% faster, and work 10/20/30/40% faster.
New UT: Arsenale
Docks and siege workshops work 40% faster.(potential to add the blacksmith too)
Costs 250f and 200g.
This refers to the arsenal of Venice, the first industrial production facility. To do so, the city had forced all workers and artisans related to ships, weapons building and blacksmith, to work and live there.
This way, with the bonus, UT ans SW you still get that post imp 100% faster working. The problem is that you lose a bit of dark age speed, and that you lose the fourt crusade UT (get 500g for each relich the player has at the moment).
Then there are 2 solutions to compensate for the early water nerf:
Docks give 10 pop(opposed to the actual TB of just 5 pop).
That seems so similar to the japanese bonus…instead how about “Fishing ships work 20% faster” (or whatever number is good for balance)? I think this would be really good for both water and hybrid maps. It’s also a new unique bonus, unless I’m forgetting something.
