Sorry, i misread! Guess I need another coffee…
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It’s never a bad idea to have more coffee.
Coffee is life
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Ok, coming back to the discussion after having some good coffee to wake me up 
I think 50% hp is too much, because the demo ships start not being an effective ounter anymore. Maybe extra PA would be better, as it would allow Venetians to focus only on fire ships without having to worry about the enemy massing galleys. Right now, fire galleys have the edge only at the beginning, once the enemy has a bunch of galleys they start just picking them off one by one.
Alternatively, maybe extra range on galleys? Not sure if OP, but it would be a very interesting bonus to play with.
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If I’m not mistaken, demo already in feudal can’t one-shot a fire, so it would still take 2 demo to kill a fire.
It can be tuned down a bit of necessary, but I think that around the 50% is balanced.
I thought too of more PA, but I wanted to avoid that the bonus would be too similar to the portos UT.
Yeah that would be OP in my opinion. Maybe as an imp UT, but that spot is already taken.
However, I don’t know if you see it, but in my design, venetians completely lack demo line (like koreans).
What I don’t like of this bonus, is that their water UU should act as a tanky meatshield, and such fire ships may outshine them.
But I fell that after the nerf on the working speed of the docks, they need something to compensate a bit. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe docking first and having fishing ships out sooner, and then in feudal massing galleys a bit faster is enough.
So, how about:
Bonuses:
- Docks are built 100% faster, and work 10/20/30/40% faster
- Starts with +50 wood (so 250w in total)
- Starts with +100 gold (so 200g in total)
- Archery range units move 5/10/15% faster in feudal/castle/imp
TB:
- Docks provides 10 pop
UTs:
- Arsenal - Docks and siege workshops works 40% faster
- Fante de mar - Archer line and infantry UU (either the castle UU or the condo) get +1 attack
What is missing, is a long term eco bonus, or a mid game discount. Before that there was the cheaper uni techs, but now that is an Italian bonus.
That wouldn’t be a big problem, but I still feel like they are a bit underpower, especially since I halved their initial extra resources (from 150w/g to 50w and 100g) and their docks work speed come in later on.
On water they are still strong, they can basically go for both sooner fires or massing galleys faster.
My concern is on land, they are still solid with a Drush opening followed by faster archers, but is it enough? The only thing that they get after that are faster working SW (locked behind a UT) and then in imp stronger attack archers.
What do you think? They need something more consistent during the game? Are they fine? Or are they OP?
A bonus like blacksmiths, markets and siege workshops giving 5 or 10 pop may be used? Or is it too much like the slavs TB? Of course it would be a separate bonus from docks gives pop.
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These bonuses are already in the game
Yes but in the same way that the lithuanians and persians bonus are the same.
Originally, it was just +150 extra gold at the start, I changed it to +50w and +100g since a bit more wood at the start was more flexible.
It could be reverted to just +150g at the start, but I can’t find another bonus to add to substitute the extra wood, that work with the civ.
As for the dock bonus, check again, the persian bonus give double the HP to docks, and work at 5/10/15/20% faster. This one make build the dock faster and gives double the speed per age, with a 100% faster working dock in post imp.
I respectively disagree that Venetians should get thier own civ. Italians civ already does a great job in representing both the Republics of Genoa and Venice with the naval tech tree, gunpowder and archer bonuses.
Better methinks to add Georgians and Nubians as new civs, as that would be adding another Eastern European civ and another African civ.
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Nubians are covered with ethiopians.
But this is not the topic to discuss who should get added.
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If you read the first post, I already explained it. I brought arguments for because I think that venetians should be added, and explained why the Italians don’t represent them, (they represents the longobard north Italians states that formed the kingdom of Italy under the HRE, even though it was more a bunch of indipendent states).
Anyway, I’ll repeat here again, I didn’t create this topic to discuss priorities among civilizations or cultures for additions on potential future DLC, if you think that other civs should have the priority is fine, I don’t preferences, but I doesn’t mean that I don’t respect other people preferences, just I don’t want to talk about it.
I created this topic to talk about the history of this culture, and the balance for the civ’s bonuses, UTs and UU, and tech tree, related to the historical aspect.
There are already tons of topics that talk about what Civ should be added first, there is no need to make this one another one of them.
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Ok, what about this bonus:
- Land military units line upgrades are researched instantly.
So I know it may seem OP, but hear me out, it’s not how you may depicted it.
- They aren’t free, you are still paying their full price for each.
- Blacksmith and uni techs aren’t included.
- The dock isn’t included (it have its own faster working bonus).
- The venetians lacks several slow units upgrades, among them: cavalier (and consequently paladin), siege onager, heavy scorps, and completely lack CA and camels (so no HCA or HCam).
So the line that actually benefits more from that it’s the militia line (since it have the most upgrades, and the champs becomes the slowest upgrade available with 100s), but considering that it’s a situational unit, I think that it’s fine. Basically you save 40s in feudal, 45s in castle and 175s in imp.
Archers are the second one that benefits the most, since they also have another bonus, and this one helps to less idle the production, which help a bit to mass them. You would save 85s in castle age (xbow+ESkirm) and 50s in imp (arb, more if you have access to IS or genitour).
Rams and trash are the other units that benefit the most, with 125s for the ram (but still 1300f), 45s and 50s each for the pike and scout line (the scout line is actually really bad though). Lastly, onager let you save 75s. Consider also that usually it’s a bit less for imp techs, since you usually research them after conscription.
My only doubts are:
- Should I include the UU elite upgrade too?
- Should be included “the third row” upgrades too? Which would mean supplies, squires, arson and TR (venetians don’t get BL or husbandry).
- Is it balanced? (of course… 11)
What do you guys think about this bonus? It may work for the venetians? It may justify a return to 150g and no extra wood at the start? It may be OP, weak or balanced?
Personally I like it, but I’m not sure sure on how historically justified it? Venetians thanks to their extensive trade network often observed and “stole” several scientific innovation, and helped to spread across Eurasia. Among them there were military ones, but it’s a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
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No wood at the start for a nation that basically was build on wood and became who it became thanks to its ships? Really don’t know what to say about that.
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I mean no extra wood as a bonus, since people complained that giving +50 wood at the start was too similar to persians bonus, alowith faster working docks.
Of course they start with 200 wood like most other civ…
Basically, this bonus would replace the +50w, and the +100g would be buffed to +150g.
Got it. Makes sense, indeed, but at the same time I don’t see a problem in having it. The only thing that makes me smile is that we are all talking here passionately, a bunch of fans telling what they would like to see, to play, dreaming of new civilizations and scenarios, and at the end of the day we don’t even know what are the plans of the devs or if they read the forum posts from time to time.
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Yeah but it’s still fun in the end, and sometimes from here some ideas are brought to the main game.
Like, here was suggested a bonus of uni tech costing 50% less, after being modified to 33%, it was given to the Italians.
It may have been a coincidence, but still, I like to think that they read it and think that even if the civ wasn’t suited for the game, some ideas were good.
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That’s nice and would be great if it were indeed like this. Many of the guys here have great ideas which are worth taking into account and implementing.
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Well, the free archer armor koreans bonus was suggested here in the forum as well, as the bulgarians cheaper workshop techs, or turks +1 PA on scouts…
And it’s not just about original and new bonuses, but also other minor tweaks and adjustments were suggested here and made it to the game. Like having the genoese xbows training in less time, or a ton of other minor buff and adjustments, and probably a ton of others original bonuses that now I can’t recall…
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Just ignore the “same bonus police”, of course the bonii are bound to be very similar at some point. Imo starting with extra wood is a good choice.
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Yeah, but I also liked the “military units upgrades are researched instantly” bonus, and 150g is more unique.
Also, venetians would still save wood when they dock by having to build less houses.
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hmm, I think extra wood is however more versatile. It gives them something useful for land maps too.
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