Some of us prefer the term “pre-Columbian” instead of “meso”, and this is because Mesoamerica refers only to Central America, with respect to “justifying cavalry in pre-Columbian civilizations” keep in mind that the Mesoamerican and South American civilizations learned to ride a horse long before the natives of North America (there are many cases such as the Incas, Traxcalas, Chichimeca, Chankas, Charrúa, etc.; if we are more meticulous, the majority of civilizations that had had contact with Europeans already in the middle By the 16th century they had already learned to ride a horse, although they remained a small group in their armed forces at least until the early 17th century).
And it is true to the existing limitations with the lack of cavalry in American civilizations, however, those limitations force the designers to create unique and interesting gameplay, there is still plenty to explore with the eagle warriors and fast unique units.
As a personal opinion, I prefer American civilizations without cavalry due to the medieval theme of AoE 2.
I took some time to search for additional information about American civilizations, this time I managed to get some information that is not so easy to access.
Gold and silver handling upgraded to “excellent” due to AOE 2’s gameplay (mining gold)
Mayan maximum population reached 10,000,000 (Thanks to user @RustyIesty)
The Mayans did manage to develop metallurgy in daily life, at first they had discarded it due to late development and little access, however, in a later review, consider that these elements were developed on their own initiative and had had a great technological leap in a few years (probably due to trade with South America).
Aztecs/Mexicas did manage to develop copper metallurgy, including copper-lead alloys.
“Undetermined” Mayan territory became “Good” category because its area of influence was +200,000 km2 (some sources even 300,000 km2).
Nazca Kingdom did use metallurgy for daily life.
Not all the states that descend from the peoples that made up the dual Empire “Tiwanaku-Wari” were allies of the Europeans.
The Caribs did defeat the Europeans, even repeatedly: This fact gave me a lot of hype; Currently it is difficult to get information and digital books from Venezuela due to its current situation, however, in the information I managed to collect I was able to verify that Cacique Guacaipuro managed to defeat professional expeditions of Spanish soldiers who intended to expel them from their lands. At first I believed that the Caribbean victories were against poorly armed colonists*, however, the 10 years of resistance of Guacaipuro and the Spanish interest in the gold mines explain the military effort in the area. With this information I consider that the Caribs have increased several positions as an ideal civilization to be added in AoE 3.
(*by the middle of the 16th century the great wars against American empires had already ended: the Spanish in those wars had taken a more political than military role, although there were resistance groups such as the Incas of Vilcabamba who maintained a guerrilla war until 1570 Such a large number of soldiers would never be mobilized as in the 1530s. With the fall of the great American empires and subsequent westernization of their inhabitants, the Spanish began a series of expeditions in search of natural resources in America, encountering various tribal groups).
–
Interesting facts, but do not justify changes:
The Chimu supported the kingdom of Cajamarca militarily when they were invaded by the Incas, their support troops were defeated when Caxamarca was conquered, it is not known how many soldiers were sent by the Chimú in support of Cajamarca so I cannot increase the maximum number recorded of his army (+20,000). An interesting fact is that when the Chimú-Inca war formally began (this was after the Inca-Caxamarca War), the Chimú army was +20,000 soldiers while the Inca army was +30,000; In the first phase of the war the Chimú managed to defeat the +30,000 Inca soldiers, however, the Inca sent another army of 20,000 soldiers so the Chimú were forced to fortify themselves in their capital Chan-Chan.
The use of metal armor by the Aztecs/Mexica has been recorded, however, the use of these metal armors were very specific situations. The most probable theory is that these metallic armors were made by the Chimu/Moche and arrived in Central America through trade. Therefore I did not alter the non-use of metallurgy in Aztec/Mexica warfare.
That’s one part. Imo the eagle needs a split into at least 2 types of units of which one is a trash unit like the scout cav.
With north american civs it’s easy to achieve as you could give them access to light cav from castle age. But I currently don’t have a concept how to add this to south american civs.
The thing with the current eagle design is that it is heavily strategically restrictive and takes away a lot of the beutiful diversity the game offers. Because it only affects 3 civs it’s not that big of a problem currently as the rarity of these civs (8%) compensates for that.
But I really advise not to stretch this too much. If we add 2 more eagle civs in an expansion it would be too much. We need a solution for the eagle problem before we add new civs like this.
This includes giving anti-cavalry units of the opponents a purpose in these matchups aswell.
In the first place, North American civs having horses is impossible in aoe2. The game covers up to 1600.
The comanche were the first tribe to develop a horse culture, but even they made contact with horses somewhere between 1630 and 1680 for the first time. They were followed by the crow and the blackfoot people as the other first tribes to use horses. However the earliest reports of these 2 tribes using horses dates back to 1742.
By this logic, we can just remove half of the european civs for being cavalry clones and taking away the diversity of prominent cavalry focused civs. For turning the region into repetitive strat fest.
Besides, this so called problem you keep talking about was solved 20 years ago by giving eagles bonus against other key units. Not to mention, they need to pay 200f and 200g just to be cost efficient against knights. While old world civs get knights as soon as reaching castle age without paying anything extra. But that’s ok for mesos, eagles just work for them thanks to their eco.
Now, if you are talking about only strategy and how to respond to a crisis, watch the videos I posted above.
Why oppose things that can bring fresh air to the game like civs lacking a specific military building. Specially for regions that still have empires missing like south america or the indian peninsula. I’m mentioning these 2 because they are the most requested regions here.
For example, they could add an indian civ that lacks archery ranges, but has elephants and horses dealing decent extra damage to infantry. Not that I’d design an indian civ like this, it’s just an example I repeat.
I don’t thik you have to take it that serious, we already have a lot of historical inaccuracies in the game. Also the game never claimed to be historically accurate. How can Incas fight Celts? And in Dark age? ^^
If we begin with that we wouldn’t come to an end for ages.
Nope. First I didn’t used any logic there. Second it isn’t even comparable. Don’t try to twist my words in completely wrong directions. I can play THAT game too if you like.
There I agree (even if it’s not 20 years). Why do you want to continue a rigged path?
I also don’t wanted to occupy this thread with that problematic. But I think we need a solution to that if we want to add more american (or pre-columbian or whatever… everybody knows what I am talking about) civs. I wanted to encourage players to think about this cause currently I don’t have a solution. And I wanted that before these civs are added as yet another eagle civ to the game.
You yourself are claiming to want these civs for more diversity. So IF you are truly with that opinion you should support my attempt for making these civs different to the current mesos. Instead you attack me personally, which is weird to say the least.
Nopw, I am not opposing it, I try to encourage to make them truly new and don’t use rigged design flaws from ages ago.
And here I must state that this whole argument is actually completely rigged. Yes, heavily restricting archery range is nice for single civs. Like spanish eg. But complete removal can’t be “sold” as bringing diversity to the game. A weakness is a weakness and can be used for mindgames, but a complete removal of an important part of the strategic diversity isn’t increasing diversity of the game. That’s just utter bs.
And that’s one part of the problematic of eagles. We have several anti-cavalry units in the game that are just useless against mesos. Nobody can tell me that this increases strategic diversity. Just look at meso trash wars: 200 skirms firing arrows at each other. Yay!
I don’t think this thread is the right location to discuss the eagle problem. Buz I think we need to talk about it at one point before adding new mesos. And yes I intentionally say meso here cause I don’t want to have another eagle civ clone with the same rigged design as the current civs called “mesos”.
I think we can do better, we just need some time to think about and encourage all the creatives for some solution proposals.
lol I wasn’t trying to antagonize you. Actually I wrote that with a friendly tone in my head.
Well, if you want to take that design approach, you yourself already gave us the answer: give stables and the scout-line to incas, chimu and wari.
Those 3 in fact used horses within the aoe2 timeframe. Chimu and wari-chankas were allied with the spanish and used horses, and the incas obtained horses on their own.
It’s accurate and makes more sense than north american civs with horses before 1600.
Personally, I don’t like it though. I’d prefer new world civs without horses anyway.
Interesting, I didn’t knew about that. But then it would indeed be simple, just give light cav from castle age and give a different non-eagle warrior as scout to them. I read many interesting proposals how they could be designed in the forum already.
A lot of people are already not happy with the current incan design so, why not using this civ as test how light cav could fit in? Probably already using an adapted version of the eagle there also.
I didn’t read about cav archers, but probably cav arquebussiers were used by them aswell.
But don’t feel forced to use this proposal of me, it was only an idea how it could be approached in a justificable manner, not meant as some kind of ultima ratio.
Hi, I’m qelqarimaq, the autor of this images. And I think you understand what I mean. The Tuccina, Toqsina, or tocsina, was just a dagger or maybe just a knife, not a sword. This was an error diffused by Juan de Velasco.
Hi, Chiqtana was not a weapon, was a tool. This was an axe just for cut trees etc. The weapon was the Kunkakuchuna, that’s why Holguin describes as a Battle axe
South America absolutely needs another civ to pair with Incas to differentiate them from actual Meso-american (means from Mesoamerica which is roughly the same as Central America, fyi) civs.
A pleasant greeting, I understood what your publication refers to, however, I also placed the following observation:
I had also seen this video (minute 10:00) where the tuqsina is also described as a dagger whose function would serve more for “surprise homicides”.
I agree that the tuqsina was also a type of dagger, however, it has to be considered that the tuqsinas that Juan de Velasco described refers to a “sword 2 to 3 spans (45-70 cm), thick and wide”. The maximum size of a dagger (using European standards) is 40cm while weapons such as the Xiphos or Gladius had measurements of 45 to 70cm and are still considered swords.
Personally, I consider tuqsinas longer than 40 cm as “short sword” and those shorter than 40 cm as “dagger”. The Incas were probably still experimenting with sword making (making larger and larger daggers), as other Bronze Age civilizations did.
I like the idea of making it a team support civ. Right now the only team support techs are kasbah and paper money, so adding team techs like terrace farms and tiwanaku priests plus turning them into the civ identity is genius. Waris will have to pay to research them so it’s fine imo. And the closest thing to a support civ in-game is bizantines. Though not quite.
But…
Don’t get me wrong, I like the support concept. And having civ techs as team support techs is innovative for aoe2 standards.
But this is something that’s being on my mind recently, how about you give waris the siege role. There are no mesos focused on siege.
I like these. @laserbear25@xPizzaSamuraixD I thought about it before. I admit siege could be a possibility but I wanted to make the civ as accurate as possible. I mean, the waris could have their fighting style and their units inspired on their real life counterparts; based on archaeological evidence. i.e. their infantry, skirmishers, monks, etc in the pictures above. Furthermore [team support and skirmishers with different purposes] is a role that hasn’t been explored before. My idea was to fill empty niches.
The wari empire didn’t just forced local kings into submission, but also appointed wari officials as representatives. The position was closer to the governors-general of the British empire or the viceroys of the Spanish empire than any pre-columbian nobility post in the New world. This resulted from an expansionist tradition since the colonization of Nasca. The fact that the wari road system could pass through tiwanaku territory and wari officials were buried in tiwanaku tombs, while there are no tiwanaku officials or nobility buried in wari territory, suggests that the tiwanaku-wari empire or confederation was controlled by the waris; or they had the dominant position. This diplomatic phenomenon might have occurred before the collapse of the tiwanaku due to the climate crisis, which happened 100 years earlier than the fall of the wari empire. In other words, the waris started to colonize the tiwanaku during their confederation and might have had complete control of the confederation for decades before the collapse of tiwanaku.
From my point of view, this is just people taking advantage of other people during crisis. As everywhere around the world. In the end, the waris maybe conquered the tiwanaku for all we know. What is very interesting to me is that the waris had viceroys or governors-general like the british empire. This means their political system was more advanced than the inca’s. Maybe their politics and diplomacy was the most advanced of the new world at that time. Truly fascinating.
Civ role: Team support and defense. Civ concept: Infantry and skirmishers.
-Skirmishers and spearmen gain +X HP for every type-related tech researched from the blacksmith.
-Miners don’t need drop-off camps.
-Can build Pikillaqta, and research: Pata-pata farms and Tiwanaku priests.
Unique units
Kunka Kuchuna (or Neck breaker): Heavy axeman that increases his attack speed by X% for every successful hit. Stacks Y times.
Chukiq Awqaruna (or Andean javelineer): Skirmisher that has attack bonus vs cavalry, andeans and eagles. Available at the archery range since the Castle age.
Unique techs
Conchopata blacksmiths (Castle age): Skirmishers and spearmen units move +X% faster.
Wiracocha cult (Imperial age): Andean warriors regenerate X HP per min and attack Y% faster.
Unique building
-Pikillaqta: Highly resistant Wari center that can train and garrison villagers, but can’t attack. It can increase the defense of nearby buildings by X%. Building it costs gold and stone. Available since the Castle age.
Team bonus
Relics generate wood in addition to gold.
Civ techs
-Pata-pata farms (Feudal age): For the Waris, farms last X% longer. For all teammates, farms cost -5 wood. It can be researched at the mill.
-Tiwanaku priests (Castle age): For the waris, monks regenerate their faith X% faster. For all teammates, monk-type units move 5% faster. It can be researched at the monastery.
Architecture: Andean (shared with the Incas).
Languages: Aymara and Chanka quechua (Ayacucho dialect).
Notes: Pata-pata means terrace farms in chanka quechua. Added possible stats for the andean regional unit.
This civ seems like too much of a smorgasbord mash-up of other civs bonuses. You have miners that work like Khmer farmers, a UT that works like Berserkergang + the Japanese attack speed bonus, a Mayan-like bonus that only applies to farms, a tech that mimics the Lithuanian spear/skirm speed bonus, a Burgundian-like relic team bonus…just kinda seems like all the AoE2 civs were thrown in a meat grinder and this is the sausage that came out. I get that with so many civs, some aspects/bonuses will resemble those of other civs, but that’s just about all there is here besides the UUs.
Back when the Inca TB was not-just-sort-of-useless but absolutely useless, I always wanted them to change it farms taking up 2x2 tiles instead of 3v3 to reflect terrace farming. Not an eco bonus so much as a defensive bonus, as it allows your farmers to be closer to TCs and lets you have a more compact food eco.
The whole point about eagles is that they are cheap and cost efficient. Their 70 res cost is enough.
If you are going to make a new andean unit more expensive like 85 res or 90 res, then you have to give them better stats to justify that price. Or at least better damage bonus sub stats.
Making them more expensive and giving them 1 more defense as a trade for -1 attack doesn’t make sense. You are just killing the unit.
Imo if you want to nerf their production in feudal and castle age, then 35f, 35g (70 res) should be ok to slow down the civ.
Also, now that this civ can’t have cheaper barrack techs, it lost any eco solvency. And your new bonuses don’t help at all. The waris have to pay for everything just to get their bonuses. Everything is locked behind a tech or depends on something else being upgraded first or has to wait for castle age. I don’t like that.
Imo something like this could work:
Spears and skirms +5/15/25 hp in feudal, castle and imperial age.
Farms last +30%
Buildings can regen hp.
They can build pikillata and research: bronze tupus and tiwakanu priests.
and blast furnace is missing.
UT conchopata blacksmiths: Spears and skirms are trained 100% faster.
UT viracochas cult: eagle warriors regen hp and attack faster.
CT bronze tupus: Spears gain +2 attack bonus against infantry for all the team.
CT tiwanaku priests: Only waris’ monk units regen their faith 25% faster. Monk units move 10% faster for all the team.
