NEW DLC confirmed for 2025

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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I said the graphics look lackluster. That is because I see a lot of room for improvement. You all have been trying hard to defend why the game is, essentially, perfect visually… up to 2021 and 2024 standards, and could use no further graphical improvements. Look, I’m glad you feel that way, truly
But the reality is that there is objectively much room for improvement, if you take a step back. There are still motionless chicken ststues in the TCs probably after 3 years. I can appreciate more polish, for the sake of my immersion, what can I say.

If you zoom in to the extent you’re zooming in to AoE IV, you’ll also find issue
I was zoomed all the way out, on max graphic settings and Panoramic zoom or whatever it’s called, when I grabbed the screenshots. Trust me, I’m not trying to be disengenuous. I’m just reporting ‘what is’. I see room for improvement and wish it was improved b/c I would like the game to be more beautiful. That"s all

I’ve just beem responding to the incessant sass, bullying, and ad hominem attacks from people who take offense when someone points out simple flaws in their favorite RTS game. They can’t separate the game from themselves and so choose to take offense for some reason over objective criticisms of an object… the game.

Oooh, ahhh. Perfect, you’re right, I see no room for improvement. The game sbould put a pin in it and get no more graphical updates. My PC shouldn’t break a sweat on max graphics like it does for all other modern day games. Time for AoE5. AoE4 is perfect, as is.

Your original claims were one must play the game and have played it recently to cast judgment on graphics, and that the graphics are up to 2021/2024 standards or have evolved so much in 3 years that the graphics are amazing to you. I pointed out repeating textures that are way too obvious, imo, and has been that way since launch. As well as blurry textures,.and very flat textures. That is just the tip of the iceburg. But since I don’t want to hurt everyone’s fragile AoE4 egos here, I’ll try to refrain from critiquing the graphics anymore. Have fun playing a game that visually looks “good enough” and can.probably be played on max settings with GPUs crafted 10-15 years ago. Tbh, that’s a pretty low standard to aim for for max settings in a 2021+3 game. But if that’s your cup of tea, then definitely go for it and keep doing your best to shut down any dissenting opinions, keeping the game’s graphics under your protective wing so it can live happily ever after “as is” in its, apparently, perfect graphical state. Looked great in 2021, right? Will look even better in 2030 when you’ve upgraded your PC and it still looks like it did in 2021 at max settings.

:slight_smile: Fair enough. But clearly their perspective can’t factor in Diablo 4, RDR2, GTA5/6, PoE2, LoU, Uncharted, and other adult games that have taken us into a more modern era of graphics than AoE4 does. Newer Star Wars games have looked pretty nice, though, so that’s good.

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That isn’t what I said remotely, even once.

No, my original reply was criticising the way you offered your own criticism, because it felt rather heavy-handed, if not a misrepresentation of the product as-is.

I show my son all manner of age-appropriate games. Not that I’ve decided to do a specific graphical comparison with AoE IV personally :smiley: My point is merely that you’re undervaluing anyone who isn’t an adult (not 7yos specifically). You don’t have to be an adult to appreciate graphics in a video game, and your opinion isn’t invalid just because someone isn’t 18 or whatever age we consider adult in-context.

Also, none of the games you’ve listed are RTS games. This is important when evaluating how games look and play. It’s like comparing an isometric game like PoE to GTA VI when it comes out. Or bringing up Uncharted as the poster child for Playstation games. Trust me when I say you don’t want to zoom in on the textures in some of the games in that franchise :wink:

I arrived in the middle of an argument, I appreciate that. But you keep trying to put words into my mouth, or claim positions I never claimed.

To get back to the topic a bit, I hope the new DLC updates the graphics in some way, just like the previous expansion did, and just like other Seasonal updates have done (despite your claims that they never updated the graphics).

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Roger that!    

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Graphics can always look better and someone, if they choose so, can always claim they don’t look good enough. But as GorbMort here likes to say, that is moving the goal post, from graphics are mediocre to graphics can be better. Where are the screenshots from the RTS games you prefer in terms of graphics. Let’s put them side by side. Which one looks like RDR2? I wanna see if that’s even possible.

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For sure!     

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Now you’re acting like my 7yo. :sweat_smile: Maybe we’ll have to wait for AoE5 for those RDR2 RTS graphics then. The technology isn’t there yet. For the time being I am happy with what 4 has to offer. Ofc I wouldn’t mind if they make it look even better, because nothing is perfect, but it definitely doesn’t prevent me from playing the game, which btw is amazing. You should try it some day.

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Maybe I am 7yo. Again, though, stop with the ad homimem personal attacks, unless you’re incapable like a 7 yo might be. If this is how you, the parent of a 7 yo, reacts to challenges of thought and opinion regarding an object, a video game, and don’t know when to quit with the ad hominems, you’ll definitely succeed in perpetuating the bully cycle. Good job, mom, or dad. Please move on

At least we agreed on one thing. Neither of us care to have little men around siege units:

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Sorry. I tried to come up with counterarguments to your last 2 posts, but that’s the only thing that came to mind. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: I would be open to seeing some screenshots though, of a truly modern RTS in your view, if it exists. Because I kind of like the graphics in 4. I’m not saying they’re the centerpiece, because I love the gameplay more, and especially playing 1v1s and analyzing the graphs and replays to think how I can improve my strategy, and I love how the gameplay feels like a full brain workout. But the graphics look damn good to me, and detailed when compared to other modern RTS games. And this is why I don’t think an AoE5 is needed. Why have 2 modern AoE games at the same time? AoM2 makes much more sense.

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No problem. I actually don’t play other RTS games, currently or recently, since Age of Empires franchise is my favorite and all I really care to play, unless and until something else comes along. That doesn’t mean I can’t wish for better graphics.

Homeworld 1 and 2 Remastered, and Deserts of Kharak are RTS games I bought and played before. They looked pretty cool at the time, probably nothing earth-shattering, but are apples and oranges to AoE. For those, I don’t particularly care for the very scripted gameplay as they inter-weave the story, but I recognize that’s the type of game they are. It’s endearing in some respects. Believe it or not, gameplay > graphics for me. I don’t really like the Total War games. And the Dune: Spice Wars RTS’ gameplay doesn’t look appealing to me so I haven’t paid attention to its graphics. Regardless, there’s not much sense in pigeon-holing RTS graphics to only compare against other RTS games. Graphics are graphics. AoE4 has so much that could be easily improved with a little TLC.

AoE4 is on the cusp of being a game I’d enjoy and play, but a few things keep me away. Its graphics do not keep me away, but it would surely benefit by getting another pass at the graphics

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Why don’t you try to zoom in on units? Don’t tell me “because nobody plays in this way” (because It’s not true).

About terrains and Mountains i’ve already said that they are good, in particular After the Season V.

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I absolutely wouldn’t mind if they improved the graphics further, if that change would convince more people to try out the actual game. But I do have to point out the irony in playing and enjoying AoE2, while wishing AoE4 had better graphics.

I’ll also tell you this, AoE4 is much more modern and enjoyable in terms of gameplay. For once, it needs little APM (and there are players who got Conqueror 3 with only 2 actions per second), while allowing for the same amount of decision making. This makes it much more relaxing to play in terms of mechanical requirements (your wrist will thank you).

What I also like is every civ feels completely unique to play, and there are people doing just that, maining a single civ and having logged ~3k games on it. I’d say that’s pretty good game design, and it makes for a rich strategical experience by introducing more perks you can make use of for decision making.

I think this might be more important than you think @Darkness01101 . RTS games impact performance very differently than a shooter or an RPG. I believe it’s got to do with the number of units, animations, number of player inputs etc. that need to be simulated at once. This is why Stormgate had to design a plugin on top of Unreal Engine to be able to develop the game. @GorbMort might know more about this, as he is a software dev iirc. I’m a structural engineer, so all I know about game development is anecdotal. But even at a surface level the game already requires quite a bit of memory with current textures. 1600 units + buildings is not negligible, and the fact you can’t find other modern RTS games that look better…well, that kind of “mediocrity” works for me. :wink:

I’m pretty sure I was fully zoomed in on units in at least 3 of those screenshots, and on buildings on others. They’re just screenshots I took in the past few months while watching other people play. It’s not something I made specifically for this situation.

Also I may have caused some confusion by using “AoE2 friend”, but I was referring to Darkness01101.

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As I said, gameplay > (is greater than) graphics. AoE2’s gameplay is what drives my main enjoyment there. The graphics are no slouch, though, and would have been more than happy if AoE4 had used a similar 2D approach. I like AoE2’s graphics and details. It could be better, as well.

That’s a personal preference. When I played AoE4 yesterday, it felt very slow and a little boring many times. And the 200 pop cap led to a long drawn out match, since we were both colliding with the same strength military over and over again. If pop cap was 400 or 500, naturally one of us would have easily overpowered the other at some likely earlier point.

More time with AoE4 may make it speed up a little, but based on what you say, probably not. I prefer AoE2’s pace and APMs. I even like playing on Fast mode, and Turbo mode sometimes. Playing AoE2 at Normal speed, which is also used in ranked MP, is way too slow, imo.

Unique civs in AoE4 sounds good on paper. I like that. I’ve heard varying opinions, though, on if it got delivered in practice. Still, sounds good to me

I’ve seen some AoE3:DE screens that show it may be (is probably) better graphically than AoE4. It’s not like AoE4 needs to be stuck where it’s at just because it’s an RTS. I’m aware RTS games have a lot of calculations to keep track of. But when myself and many others can easily play at max graphics settings, there is clearly a lot of room to accommodate better graphics and more graphic options (and higher pop count max) :slight_smile:

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Disclaimer - this has nothing to do with anything about AoE IV’s graphics, if they can be improved, or how much by.

Anyhow. Every single game has a bunch of different metrics that affect performance. Not only do minimum specs often differ (which provides an important baseline that affects both the scope of the game but also the fidelity of its graphics - providing graphical options and using things like LODs, etc, only goes so far), but what is performed within the scope of a single frame is also important.

To this end, a lot of games have render targets in terms of polygons they’re able to draw in a single frame. There’s some variance here, not every game is equally-optimised, and so on. But there’s a limit.

So, roughly speaking, the amount of detail is that limit divided by the amount of things on the screen. Very roughly. Polygons only. Ignoring post-processing or anything else that happens. Everything you add in that frame has a cost.

So yes, comparing across genres isn’t useless, but imo only really helpful in terms of art direction, and / or scoping out the limits of a particular platform (e.g. if you’re benchmarking the PS5 vs. PS5 Pro). In terms of “how much detail one game has vs. another”, it’s kinda useless, because an FPS might only have to draw 10 to 20 player or AI characters in a single frame. AoE IV goes up to what, 200? Per player / AI? Again, keeping this simple, ignoring the world, environment art, buildings, etc.

(and this is before we talk about threading, what runs on what thread, etc)

Are you supposed to care about this? Not really, no. You can ignore all of this if you want. All you need to judge is the end product and how much you personally enjoy it.

But the developers have to care about this stuff.

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But you’re critiquing AoE4 on a surface level, by obsessing over background graphical details that aren’t even relevant to gameplay, or as is the case with that cliff example, aren’t even close to being a general problem. I’ve seen you comment on graphics multiple times in different threads, so how do you favor gameplay over graphics? What can you tell us about the actual gameplay of AoE4? What’s your analysis of it? I’m not sure if I’ve heard it yet.

I think this is where you’re truly honest. You have a bias towards a game that a pair of fresh eyes would immediately see as inferior in terms of graphics. But then coming here and critiquing AoE4’s graphics shows a pinch of hypocrisy in my eyes.

It’s not boring at all. Not having to do menial tasks as often is a very welcome change. And trust me, you won’t be able to keep up with everything that’s going on in a game vs another player. It’s still a fast paced game, and too fast for many gamers, it just got rid of the bloat. While enriching what’s important - the map mechanics and civ variety and perks. The actual exciting stuff.

No comment.

EDIT: Again play what you like. But have reasonable expectations and be consistent with those expectations across the games you play and the ones you critique. I say give 1v1 a chance in AoE4 (but only if you want to have fun). Do 40-50 games against other players with a civ you enjoy thematically, and then come back here and share a more informed opinion, that includes gameplay past basic initial impressions. Then your opinion will have some weight to it, and I’d even be interested in reading it.

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It was a direct response to your graphics teammate advising me that I need to look at other RTS games if I’m to talk about AoE4’s RTS graphics. If that has nothing to do with AoE4, then I think you meant to give your disclaimer to them

I already knew all that, so the Graphics 101 course didn’t do much for me. I just know that in the real world, video games have a Graphics options menu for a reason. Some PCs can take the extra coolness, some can’t. Thus, options menus exist.

It is a little odd for a major video game to be built for and released with last gen’s hardware in mind as the high bar, which kind of feels like is the case here. If they were being conservative in 2021, maybe being safe and not knowing how it would run, that’s fine. Now that it is three years later, though, can we both agree that the graphical training wheels can come off and higher graphics settings be added? I feel like this could have been done shortly after launch, but I mean it has been 3 years now. PCs are getting faster, the game isn’t getting any younger.

If you see AoE4 aging like a fine wine and don’t want improvements made for your fellow AoE enthusiasts because of nostalgia or you just don’t like the thought of others rejoicing in better graphics, then I guess I can try to understand your resistance and constant defense of current state, and be more okay with letting the game’s graphics remain “as is” for as long as possible

If AoE5 comes out in 2030 and my current PC that I got at least like 5 years ago runs the game at its max settings no problem, I just might have the same graphics critique notes for AoE5

EDIT:

There’s a difference. AoE2 came out years ago and has inherent nostalgia tied to it. AoE4 came out 3 years ago. So, when developing, they had to decide to either cater toward nostalgia and mimic the 2D graphics look, or use a 3D engine and make it look more modern. Since they decided to start fresh and go with 3D, I’d expect better graphics than what we see. I have no rose-tinted glasses toward AoE4 because the style, graphics, and vibe are entirely different than AoE2. I compare it to other modern-day games since it came out 3 years ago.

Oh, you sure got me there. Zing! I’m talking about graphics because I’m waiting for the day when AoE4 has 500 pop cap, farther zoom out, revamped UI, and a few other things that will help me actually enjoy the gameplay experience. I need the proper utilitarian tools and non-aggravating things in place before I can actually enjoy the gameplay. Until then, the gameplay (in combination with all the utility and other things that bother me) is painful, slow, and boring for me. Within the first 6 months they could have given an old-school UI option, given much higher zoom level, and raised the pop cap to 400 or 500, and I’d have played many more matches. That never happened, though, so here we are. I have one or two games under my belt post-launch (in 2024), and a few pre-launch (in 2021). I see little or no difference in my experience between 2021 and 2024, graphically or gameplay-wise. Just my perception. If I’m wrong, great. You guys are the experts on what has changed. AoE4 hasn’t been my focus for years.

If they ever increase the pop cap and zoom level, I will. Probably not 40-50 against humans, as I prefer vs. AI, but I understand what you’re saying. A new UI would certainly be a nice option to add, too, for nostalgic AoE2ers like me, and so we can minimize the mental processing power required to evaluate icons that all look very similar and are all the same color.

I hit the 200 pop cap in 75% of the pre-launch matches I played, and 100% of the post-launch matches. I am not a fan of such a restriction; let me play the game. Especially for SP matches. I hate having to kill off units to make room for more.

Your screenshots

And how do these units fit inside the doors?

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Okay, okay. Sorry, this was a low blow. Although I appreciate AoE2’s more realistic scales, and although this weird scaling is a factor in my partial dislike of AoE4 graphics (i.e., they can be much better), it’s not something that prevents me from wanting to play it

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No, i mean with " free camera zoom".

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But why would I zoom in even more than the game allows during play? I don’t understand.

If the game looks good even when zoomed in to the maximum, I am more than happy with it. If you want to install that mod and take screenshots to put them on your desk, you are more than welcome to. But that’s not what I bought the game for. I would suggest Pokemon Snap, which might fit your needs better.

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This Is tour mistake. You probably play only in Multiplayer but you are a Little percent. I can assure you that many people Who play only campaigns and skirmish are very interested about graphic or immersion during the game.

The e-sport or Multiplayer game is very Little percent of AOE games.

Zoom in on your units during the battles is very important for many players.

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They would still zoom in as close as the game allows it. Or at least most of them, and we can check the numbers on that “free camera zoom” mod in case we disagree on this.

I play both Skirmish vs AI and MP 1v1, but I play them as a sort of brain workout, meaning I play Skirmish to try things out or to benchmark my performance against previous ones. The last Campaign I played in an RTS game was WarCraft 3. And even before being interested in MP, I was only interested in Skirmish, where I had the most freedom. I think there are much better games to play if you are interested in immersion.

But do you have some numbers on that supposition? Because saying I am a “little percent” is quite a strong claim. AoE4 has some solid numbers for a game that caters to MP, even when compared to games that are overloaded with SP content.

If we’re only making claims that can’t be backed up, I might also say that people interested in MP play the game and stick with it much more than people who play SP. Don’t ask me to back that up, because I’ve also pulled that out of my ass.

But anyway here is the bump in player base caused by the new AoE2 SP DLC:

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Not sure how revelatory that is, but at least it’s based on something.

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No, it was a direct response to you saying you can compare across genres because “graphics are graphics”.

It wasn’t really a graphics course, it was more a game engine primer, and a very basic one at that. It was explaining how there are inherent limits that graphics options have very little to do with. It’s just maths.

Not all hardware optimises the same things equally. You can’t add pixels forever assuming similarly scaling hardware. It doesn’t work like that.

But I’m assuming you know all that.

I’m open to any and all improvements the devs are able to make. Unit textures in particular would benefit from a pass.

Presumably you meant to reply to someone else, because I never said the graphics couldn’t be better.

Indeed, as I’ve already said, the graphics have already been improved in various areas since launch. You are aware that this is the case, right?