New DLC Inbound!

[Ekarlath]

Alright people, finally been able to find something that led to to tell the top-right castle is 100% a Chinese Castle.

With lots of research, and talks we had there and reddit, it’s a “Three Kingdom Era” architecture style castle. BUT, this is NOT meaning that any three kingdom era civ is coming, stay cool. What it means, basially, is that this castle design was inspired by some architecture reconstruction we can see in “Chibi Hubei”.

The detail that made me 100% sure about that claim is that:

The way the wall is designed on the castle sprite is 100% the same as those walls reproduction.

Conclusion: it’s the new Chinese vanilla Castle, 99.99% sure of that.
I’m pretty convinced all the castles on the preview are for existing civ only, I can’t explain why, but as a gamedev myself, it sound just…Totally logical with how they wrote the entire patchnote that it’s not any of the new civs castles.
On the big screenshots preveiw we had, it was some new content, jurchen castle, tanguts castle, confusian shrine, etc. But on the others, well, they placed hints yes, but “hidden” one. And placing one single “new civ” castle on the castle preview just make no sense, like really it makes no sense.

And if you take that picture, of the same place:

You can see black dragon symbol on a red flag…The symbol we’ve trying to guess could just be that dragon and not any chinese language symbol, cause iit’s definitly not the Wu nor the Han symbol, it’s something else.

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I’ve also compared limestone, grey stone, coal, tin, copper, iron, coal, chicken, argali, panda, and even bamboo origin location map with the current AoE2 civ location map to see any combined location and it’s just pointing at:

• Chicken may be related to a Southeast asia civ (Fire-Archer on SEA background)
• Arabian Wolf origin location close to the red sea, close to the persian sea, and south east part of arabia (I think this will be campaign related)
• Tin, Copper, Coal, Iron deposite map matches well…China, no joke. So nothing interesting there to know about. Same for amboo and Giant Pandas pointing at China, but we already have China so you got me here.
• Black asian bear basically from all SouthEast asia, china, and the nepal mountain range I can’t remember how to spell the name of.

Sadly only idea I came to is a Delhi related horse rider having an helmet close to one of our unidentified cavalry unit, but lack of elephant, and access to lou chan ships makes me think it’s not that. Still if you’re intered it’s on a page about the First Battle of Panipat.
I’m gonna search deeper about those chicken origin point and maybe finally find those damn Fire-Archer with a matching SEA origin logic.

[Tyranno13]

Now THAT is a match!

Looks like we have that solved then.

[Apocalypso4826]

I was hoping the Chinese Castle would be more elaborate. This building looks incredibly bland.

[Ekarlath]

I’m not sure about where to place Tanguts nor Jurchen but that’s the base idea:

In lime, bleu, pink and purple it’s some SEA region without current civ, but could not find any matching archer style tradition with recurved bow and non-goldish helmets.

I’m gonna rise a question but, could the Khitan and Tanguts actually use the same civ ? I mean, in Ghenghis Khan campaign we know that now the Kara-Khitai will have another civ, that has access to rocket carts and no more mangudai. Maybe Khitan are just gonna swap to one of the two new chinese civs, one beeing Jurchen the other Tanguts as we saw from castle styles.
The new Korean castle style is close to the Jurchen castle style, leading me to think the region those two castle civ owner will be close to each other.
The Tanguts castle type with those color strip flags that are still bothering me a lot seems to have access to the firelancer and rocket carts.

We know for sure there are at least two asian themed unique unit with the grenadier and the iron pagoda rider, but there is also the civ with the unkown cavalry unit and lou chan without gunpowder nor steppe riders nor firelancers. Add Fire-Archer SEA to that, and the Dagger-Lancer unit.

Here I’m gonna to full theoricraft from what we know and what my instinct tells me:

A) Tanguts Tech tree preview - Grenadier Unique Unit

• Rocket Cart and Fire Lancer avaiable, steppe lancer, etc.

B) Pre-Gunpowder Asian civ tech progression menu - Dagger-Spear Unique Unit

• No Firelancer, no gunpowder, Lou Chan replacement of cannon galleon, but no Traction Trebuchet

C) SEA Civ - Fire-Archer Unique Unit + Pasture Unique Building

• Eventually chicken related, with pasture building to feed them

D) Jurchen . Iron Pagoda Unique Unit + Bactrian Trebuchet Unique Unit

Color logic pattern close to Jurchen flag pattern.

E) ???

Could be Qara Khitai, could be something totally out of the box, or could be related to the Jian Swordman.

And now I’m realizing there is a problem about the Jurchen Bactrian Trebuchet idea, either it’s a regional unit to replace a siege unit, either it’s not the jurchen cause batrican are not from where the jurchen are. I’m lossing myself about Jurchen/Tanguts so if someome can help cleaning out my mess about them both ahaha.

But the point is, if the Kara-Khitai are using the Tanguts nomadic civ, and two more asian civ out there, plus one SEA, this would give us:

• Anti-Infantry Gunpowder Civ (D-Jurchen)
• Heavy Cavalry Civ (A-Tanguts)
• Anti-Building-Ship Archer Civ (C-SEA Chicky)
• Anti-Cavalry Infantry Civ (B-Pre-Gunpowder Asian Civ)

If the Jian Swordman, which is classified as a Schock Infantry is not a regional unit, cause it would have be on the B civ tech preview if it was, then it’s a unique unit, so maybe the 5th civ is an Asian version of the Goths, as in, stormtrooper schock infantry.

Anyone knew a China related kingdom that lasted for more than 100 years that was famous for massive usage of foot soldiers using Jian type swords ?

[Tyranno13]

@Ekarlath

And now I’m realizing there is a problem about the Jurchen Bactrian Trebuchet idea, either it’s a regional unit to replace a siege unit, either it’s not the jurchen cause batrican are not from where the jurchen are. I’m lossing myself about Jurchen/Tanguts so if someome can help cleaning out my mess about them both ahaha.

The Camel Catapult belongs to the Tanguts, and the Grenadier is for the Jurchens.

The former is mentioned in the Song military handbook, with illustrations, and is listed as a Tangut unit. Not to mention that Bactrian Camel territory overlaps poorly with the Jurchens.

Meanwhile, the Grenadier is Jurchen because their armour is exactly Jurchen style, and so is the spikey grenade design.

Basically…flip them around.

@Ekarlath

I’m gonna rise a question but, could the Khitan and Tanguts actually use the same civ ? I mean, in Ghenghis Khan campaign we know that now the Kara-Khitai will have another civ, that has access to rocket carts and no more mangudai. Maybe Khitan are just gonna swap to one of the two new chinese civs, one beeing Jurchen the other Tanguts as we saw from castle styles.

Potentially that could happen. However there are a few issues.

1: The Khitans are a para-Mongolic ethnic group. If it wasn’t obvious by the name, that means they are closely related to the Mongolic family tree. So basically, the Kara-Khitai are either going to be represented by the Khitans or the Mongols, nobody else fits.

2: The Tanguts are not related to the Mongols at all, and are closer to the Tibetans. Their language is in the same family as them and the Burmese.

@Ekarlath

Anyone knew a China related kingdom that lasted for more than 100 years that was famous for massive usage of foot soldiers using Jian type swords ?

There isn’t really anyone. Swords are really really bad as primary melee weapons. The main users of them were the Romans and…that’s about it. Everyone else preferred spears, halberds, other polearms or even axes and maces over swords as a primary weapon.

[Ekarlath]

@Tyranno13

The Camel Catapult belongs to the Tanguts, and the Grenadier is for the Jurchens.

But aren’t the Iron Pagoda for Jurchen ?

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I’ve also read something about the guy “Kongming” and the chu ko nu invention. It seems the Chu-ko-nu unit we have ingame use his invention, which was based on another repeating crossbow type used “during the warring state period”. That could be the siege unit I’ve pointed few days ago, which defiitly seems to have a lever mechanics.

Hear me right here, I’m not at all saying there will be a civ from the Warring Period, just that there is maybe a pre-chu-ko-nu unit for that civ featuring the Ji Dagger-Spear soldiers with the confusian temple and the guy with the feather-stick. Which could be then the preview techtree I mentionned on the B civ guess.
That would make sense so they can keep the Chinese with actual Chu Ko Nu, and add another civ covering earlier time perdiod, on “Shu Han” area, with an hevavier version of the chu ko nu as siege unit.

That would then point towards the Heiguang cavalry beeing regional for Shu Han and eventually Wu of tha same period. When I say Wu, I mean the area covered, and they would be the one with the Jian swordman schock infantry. But I’m not conviced with that.

I’ve also read that Kongming guy invented the landmines, so maybe there is also something about that, as they’re adding that unit type.

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So wait, there is something wrong, three unique units for jurchen ? Iron Pagoda Cavalry + Grenadier + Bactrian Cavalry ?

That’s too much, we’re missing something there.

[Tyranno13]

@Ekarlath

But aren’t the Iron Pagoda for Jurchen ?

Yes. The Jurchens are likely getting both.

@Ekarlath

So wait, there is something wrong, three unique units for jurchen ? Iron Pagoda Cavalry + Grenadier + Bactrian Cavalry ?

No. Tanguts are getting the camel catapult. It’s their UU.

[Badsoup]

The screenshot does show the Iron Pagoda and the camel catapult on the same team, it could be just for a campaign but I have a hard time believing the camel catapult will be the sole unique unit of a faction.

[Ekarlath]

So…The heavy armor cavalry is the Hei Guang and is regional, impossible to solve it.

Which also mean the red flag cavalry unit is not the hei guang, maybe their unique unit ?

Or it’s a pre-gunpowder japan faction, any guess ?

[Tyranno13]

@Badsoup

The screenshot does show the Iron Pagoda and the camel catapult on the same team, it could be just for a campaign

It’s just for a screenshot. They always juggle units around.

@Ekarlath

So…The heavy armor cavalry is the Hei Guang and is regional, impossible to solve it.

Which also mean the red flag cavalry unit is not the hei guang, maybe their unique unit ?

Or it’s a pre-gunpowder japan faction, any guess ?

The unit with the red flags is almost certainly the Hei Guang. Or else it’s a new unit we don’t know about, in which case…we can’t really guess anything.

There’s no other faction for Japan, just the Japanese.

I’m not 100% sure who it is. Tibetans is my best guess, but the civ bonuses could be anything, so who knows.

I can rule some out though:

• Not Tanguts, as they need camels
• Not Jurchens, as they need gunpowder
• Not Khitans, as no Bloodlines or Hussar.
• Not Bai, as there are no elephants.

Tibetans are the only option left, and it fits them fairly well.

[Velk413]

@Ekarlath

In lime, bleu, pink and purple it’s some SEA region without current civ

I think if new civs came to those areas it would be in a seperate DLC. Honestly the only reason Thai would even fit in this DLC is (and this might not even be real but only legendary) but allegedly the Thai people originated in southern China before migrating to modern Thailand (I also am not convinced the Thai will show up in this DLC. I think Nanzhao/Bai is a more logical southern China rep, and the Thai, which I really want, will come later in a dedicated SEA DLC. The Chickens are about the only thing that makes me think there’s a chance at all for Thai in this DLC, and honestly I think that the presence of Chickens are very far from being smoking gun evidence that Thai will make an appearance in this DLC.

[Gaudio3342]

Is it appropiate for Tanguts to recieve fire lancers and/or rocket carts? I know they coexisted with Jurchens and Mongols, but I’m not sure if they hanged on the trend of using these experimental gunpowder weapon. My intuition is that it was more of a Jurchen and Mongol thing learning from the Chinese.

[Tyranno13]

Probably not. Although we see a tech tree where it looks likely that they have the Fire Lancer.

I’d say that is less egregious than the Rocket Kart, which feels way out for them.

But Vietnamese get Fire Lancers…so who knows tbh.

[Gaudio3342]

Do you mean the tech tree with CA Cavalry Archer? That’s probably the Khitans tech tree, isn’t it? Heavy Camels are not unproper for them.

[Ekarlath]

@Tyranno13

The unit with the red flags is almost certainly the Hei Guang. Or else it’s a new unit we don’t know about, in which case…we can’t really guess anything.

There’s no other faction for Japan, just the Japan

I’ve checked, actually ingame, the unique units doesn’t appears on the civ dropdown menu. So either they changed it for it to be visible, or it’s a regional replacmenet for the knightline.

I’m still covinced the “hei guang”, meaning “brilliant”, made or iron, isn’t correspond to the red flagged cavalier guy.
And if the bactrian treb is the tanguts UU, then, the iron pagoda is the HeiGuang, and it could make sense as it’s iron armor. The only thing that gives me doubt is that hte iron pagoda seems to be an heavy cataphract where the heiguang is an “all purpose”.

I’m gonna try find out what that calavier guy could be, maybe it’s just a mounted samurai ? But I doubt that theory honestly. Would make little sense to have a sub-japanese faction pre gunpowder with mounted samurais as regional when vanilla japan doesn’t get it.

[Ekarlath]

@Tyranno13

Tibetans are the only option left, and it fits them fairly well.

Are you sure the isn’t any other possibilites ?

Han Plumed Rider

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The armor style correspond to the Ji-Dagger-Spear soldier, and the Shu Han period of the confusian guy with the feather-stick.
For those saying “it’s out of the aoe2 timeframe”, what about Atilla’s campaign and the Huns ? To me, it totally matches the game, as “early china” civ representation.

This would lead us to have a regional Plumed Rider replacing knight line, so this would probably mean a second civ for that unit to fits in, with Ji-Dagger-Spearman unique units for the Han with the siege version of the Chu Ko Nu and another 5th(ish) century asian related civ with the Jian Swordman as unique units.

if this guess is correct, then we’ll have:

• Jurchen, gunpowder civ, with probably a unique tech or civ bonus about the iron pagoda
• Tanguts, camel, siege, cavalery archer civ
• “Shu Han” / “Southern Han” / “Han”, pre-gunpowder, siege and infantry civ
• PH_WU° schok infantry civ, pre-gunpowder
• 1 Sea Civ with anti-building/ship archer (this one can just be a civ giving mercenaries / team bonus units that ended on a SEa background)

°PH_WU stands for “placeholder_WU” cause I have no better idea to ““name”” them until we get more info, not saying at all it’s WU what so ever, juste that I saw a map today where there was Shu Han and Wu side to side, so don’t take this words as proof, it’s juste placeholder.

[SMUM15236]

Came across a reddit post with no interaction.

Hera mentioned in his last twitch stream that he will have early access a lot of things are coming up very very soon.

So maybe today we can get the trailer. If not Monday.

[VNDISPVTED]

This SEA civ all be referring to might very likely be the Tai Tai peoples - Wikipedia . This civ could represent both Siam/Thailand but also the Dali Kingdom Dali Kingdom - Wikipedia ?

Maybe?

[SamplingBoot796]

The Dali Kingdom was founded by white people
Nothing to do with Thai people

白族

[Ekarlath]

Dali area falls under Shu Han area from what I’ve seen. Still, I’m no expert of China history so my guess is it’s neither Han neither Dali but a name we’ll soon learn that covers the area in which many timestamps can be fits, including Han period with “Kongming” and Dali too.

I doubt Thailand wil lbe added, simply cause its history rely a lot on burmese(pagan) and Khmer that area laready in the game so it’s more for a campaign than a civ that Thailand is relevant.

Thing is, when you think about what civ can be released, it’s not just about the area, nor the story, it’s also about the gameplay, and redundancie.

All the archers I’ve found related to SEA culture were most of the time wearing some goldish helmets with tons of spikes everywhere on their head, nothing ressembling to the Fire Archer turban.
The only “close” representation I’ve found was the Manchu Archers, but they’re from a period after AoE2 timeframe, and many details doesn’t match.
What makes me think it’s not neccessarly an SEA civ that will have it, but a mercenary logic as condotierro or imperial skirmisher is the dragon heads on the bow, and the “moustache” that looks very “asian” to me in my “cliché” databank.

The bow is a recurved bow, but it’s not only that, if you pay attention to it, you can see it’s featuring the same end curves system as manchus bows, which gives even more power to the arrow, meaning good range. The unit got 6 of range, and also have a multi projectile stat, with the 5(2), so maybe we’re looking the wrong way.

Any SEA civ already in the game featuring an extra projectile to archer units ?