New November patch discussion

Since no one else seems to have started a general discussion for the new patch, I’ll start one.

I know what some of you are thinking, that it’s too early and they we should try it first, but there is no harm to start the conversation in the meantime, even just on first impressions for now (plus thanks to my new job I predict that I won’t be able to test it myself for several days if not week, so at least you can cheer me up with your experience…).

I’ll start with my first and hot impressions of the several civs changes:

Aztecs:

  • The nerf could have been less drastic, for example staggered by ages, but after all it’s appreciated, since it reduce the gap between aztecs eco and most of other civs.
  • The JW reduced TT is handy, but I don’t think that it’ll change anything, since it wasn’t that their main problem (maybe they are better when facing goths…)

Bulgarians:

  • much appreciated the blacksmith bonus tech, since their UU needs double the armor tech you can now actually have an edge (before you were only able to match another civ who didn’t need both infantry and cavalry upgrades), it’s also a worh ally now in team games.
  • the BS and SW discounts on food it also helps them, not too much, not too little, and it plays directly with their strengths (full BS techs and fantastic siege).

Burmese and Celts:

  • not too much to say, nice little nerfs on their main (and still strong) strategies.

Cumans:

  • I don’t know if this was necessary onestly, probably people would have instead preferred a reduction of the frame delay of other cavalry archers units…

Etiopians:

  • nice the reduction of the gold cost, but nothing too crazy about, SW were however good before, now they simple are a bit spammable, but their role doesn’t change.

Goths:

  • that’s a bit tricky… I think that the main idea was that now they can’t make a drush with more than 3 militia, not without gathering gold at least, but they still left the opportunity for them to use annoying strategies like go forward with an ista researched loom (you can potentially research it even before queuing any vills) and wall in resources.
  • I personally would have preferred that loom would have been researched immediately and for free when clicking up to feudal (not when reaching feudal), and that goths start the game with minus 50, but we will see how this develops…

Indians:

  • so that’s more difficult, basically they camels and ligh cav have +1PA for free in castle age, and the standard PA in imp, but in imp they also lose 1MA for losing plate armor, am I right? I’m onestly not sure on how to feel about this, for sure they are a bit more viable now in castle, but in imp that a big nerf, though, this was requested for late game on TG, so they are a bit less strong vs paladins.
  • for reducing the bonus of camels vs buildings, I don’t think it’ll change anything, since it wasn’t that important before, and this hasn’t changed.

Italians:

  • They finally reduced the training time for GC, it’s now on pair with other foot archers UU in castle age, and a bit below average in imp, which is great. They haven’t changed their elite stats or reduced the elite cost (which is high) but since the elite version now takes 14s to train (9/10s with conscription, which is almost as a CKN) I think that now it is worth the resources that it cost more than before.
  • I’m disappointed that they didn’t receive any other change (a rework of the age/dock discount, a new bonus for archers, or even just getting back some old weak bonuses, like - 15w or +2LoS on FS) but at this point I’ll take what I get, and that change alone could really make the difference.

Kmer:

  • there isn’t really much to say here, all their strongest bonuses are neefed, so now it’s a bit less frustrating to play against them.

Koreans:

  • I really like their changes, I used to think their free archer armor bonus would better benefit the Italians (and would make WW even more stronger), but after all koreans doesn’t have really much, so I think that it’s balanced, and could work very well with their cheaper archers.
  • Their tower (and Trush) received a bit of a nerf, since they now need a castle for their extra range, and that’s is welcome by me.
  • At the same time their TS received a small buff, making them more viable on water, and more water diversity is always welcomed.

Lithuanians:

  • I like that there is finally a tradeoff for using letis (more damage but less resistance to archers).

Malians:

  • gbetos were good even before, but I think that reducing the frame delay will incourage their use more.

Mayans:

  • I don’t think that the nerf on obsidian arrows will change too much them…

Portuguese::

  • really welcomed change (even though I would have gone with a less strong one to be onest). Now, I’m assuming that this doesn’t affect aging up, since this is the malay/persians bonuses (otherwise, if I’m wrong, I definitely think it’s OP) so this wouldn’t change too much their feudal age, but by the time the they are in imp, the bonus can really snowball and help them, even just teaching into cavalier in 30s less is a huge help, and it work well with their open tech tree.

Tartars:

  • I don’t think that +1MA on scouts, SL and CA will be game-changing, but it wouldn’t make them OP either (we will have to see how it work with patrol SL…)
  • the 2 free sheeps is nice, I really curious to see how this will change their build orders, I estimated that in a standard game between 600 and 800 food spread across the game (less factoring in the decaying). It wouldn’t make them the new mongols or Britons (who get their food faster) but I think that they simply be more confortable with their food and wood (more like the lithuanians extra food bonus), so they’ll be more flexible than fast.

Turks:

  • good for the +1PA on scouts, let’s see if this will compensate for their lack of foot trash. Though I would have made the bonus start in castle age, for 2 reasons; first, their skirms in feudal are perfectly fine, even if a bit of a waste, second, now their scout rush will be a lot more effective vs archers, and more difficult to counter (though spears will always work well, so we will have to see…).
  • I also like the increase of accuracy on janissarys, since it really make no reasons for them to be that innacurate, I hope that that will prove once and for all that turks don’t need good trash to be a good civ.

Vikings:

  • not a necessary nerf but a welcomed one, since their berserkers really chew through cavalry, at least now it more difficult to get the UT.

General:

  • I think that now the walling meta is nerfed by a lot, which I don’t like as a personal preference, but I agree with it, it’s a good change since this was abused too much and too easily.
  • the BE now will strugge more on pushing by demolishing buildings, wich is good.
  • also there is no change to HC and CA, which a lot of people (including me) were expecting, but those can and could come with later patches.

To conclude, I don’t think that this will be the last balance patch that we will see, for sure there will be still adjustments to the changers brought with this patch, and maybe some more other new changes. But probably this will be the bigger patch that we will ever get, and the last one to be so heavy on balance changes, at least for a while.

Overall, I can’t say that I agree on everything, but I like it in general, and I think that the waiting was worth.

Now it’s your turn, express you ideas, feelings and experiences (do it for the ones that like me have to wait to test it :cry:), of course in a mature and respectful manner:

8 Likes

At least Devs improve the wall placement. This is the best update ever.

19 Likes

I really was expecting some buffs for the SteppeLancer and the HandConnoneer
I feel that the Battle Elephants are slowly getting nerfs every time, I don’t want they fall in the same spot that the SL is right now
Overall the patch seems good, we need to try it first
I was expecting some new campaigns but I guess that won’t happen anytime soon
Regards

8 Likes

True, there are a tons of improvements on meccanics and quality of life features, which are great with no arguments.

Here though I wanted to talk about balance, since that’s usually the most controversial and dividing argument among the fan base.

1 Like

I think we’ll get something in this direction next year.

The biggest thing which makes me extremely happy which for some reason nobody mentions is the fact that I can win with a wonder in a Regicide game now. Always wanted that and this is really cool.

Being able to combine game modes is a way to add longevity to the game.

4 Likes

A lot of us are expecting those, but I think that the devs want for us to settle with the mods meccanics, that allow us (and some forgotten members too) to create new campaigns for everyone.

I know it’s not the same thing but at least it’s a never ending source of new content.

2 Likes

I was hoping for a CA frame delay buff and some kind of improvement to gunpowder units (like more projectile speed). I like almost all changes overall, but I won’t deny that I was expecting a bit more given the very long wait time.

14 Likes

I fell the same, but then I also thought that it’s not a good thing to pile up too many changes in a single upgrade, since that wouldn’t allow up to properly focus, test and analyze all of them to see if they are good or not.

So maybe, just maybe, some units that are common for a lot of civs so they’ll get their own patch.

Ports are unrushable now.
They always out-tech the opponent, get their eco upgrades going much faster, and need only Archery Range and Siege Workshop units against anything that is not Goths.

Just played a game against Magyar Scout Rush, and the guy made up to 16 Scouts, none did even the slightest bit of Eco damage (no Vills killed), because I could spam Archers so fast (less Gold cost) from 3 ARs, that he had no chance.
The last wave was fighting Crossbows while the guy was still in Feudal.
Fletching and Padded Armour arrived so fast, I did not even notice, but the opponent did.

He was still in Castle Age, massing ESkirms when I attacked with an Imp Age army of Arbs, OGs and HCs, with 4 BBCs for Siege.
The guy never had a chance, and I know he is a better player than I am (we play regularly).

Ports are like Archery Range Pillar Men now!
They just strike a pose and get FU so fast, that it is frightening.

As long as you Boom efficiently, and put you buildings in a way that your Archers can get between them to defend from Melee, you are unrushable.

8 Likes

Anyone tested out the AI yet? Unfortunately there don’t seem to be any big changes. Maybe next time…

1 Like

Does Portugese 30% faster tech bonus also apply to age-up technologies? That would be an incredibly strong buff.

2 Likes

I had high expectations for the patch, but it went above and beyond. I agree will the made changes to civs, can’t complain. Only thing I do hope is what they did not change (yet).

  1. I was hoping they would fix the broken display time trigger since they spent so much time on scneario editor. But it wasn’t mentioned in the patch.

  2. Aquebus fix and HC buff by increasing projectile speed to 7 like arrows

  3. Calvary archer base accuracy 50% is still absurd compared to mangudai or other uu 90%.
    Unusable without thumb ring. Also the unit is too good FU (remove one piece armor from parthian tactics) and just unfun to micro, so a sligly lower frame delay would be good.

  4. Longsword men buff my tech cost reduction atleast lower than crossbow is a must in my opinion.

Dont get me wrong, the patch is amazing, but these are the points to dream about for next patches.

6 Likes

The big ai changes are the new scripts checks that will allow future further developments hopefully.

2 Likes

Why he didn’t use skirms though?

Do you fell that this is too much for them? I fell that it could have been 10/20/30% faster, but considering that it’s not specialized in anything in particular it doesn’t seem that powerful (then I think about portos blacksmith with a bulgarians ally and they would probably research the tech so fast they that you get them even before clicking on them…)

Alternatively it could be modified to affect only Eco upgrades or only military techs.

If I compare to civ like vikings to get the tech instantly, those bonuses are still strongher, but portos bonus affects more techs, I suppose that we will see.

Also last question, does it affect aging up as well?

I am not sure, but applies to everything else and I can tell it is already OP.

A Scout Rush is a huge commitment, so youy will lack Food for anything else.
He did make Skirms in the end, but Castle Age ESkirms cannot compete with Organ Guns, and Arbs with Bracer and Ring Archer armour.

Ports will now never take a fight at the same Tech Level as the opponent, if you are smart about it. You can now just out-tech him and get massed Gold troops of a superior level than his, much quicker.

3 Likes

It does not apply to age-ups.

6 Likes

True but he could have stopped training scouts and switch to skirms after a bit, I don’t know maybe he was caught by surprise, we will see how this will work out.

After the patch, I don’t see Tatars, Portuguese and Bulgarians as a low tier civ anymore. Bulgarians have the potential to be higher than mid tier what is really OK because some nerf on top tier sight won’t change anything.

Koreans I’m not sure it would be enough. They nerf the tower.

Problem I see in Indians. Before they suppose to be lower mid tier and rather suppose to need help. The missing Knight Line in castle age is huge and cannot be compensate well for the castle age and later. After patch I don’t see big change in their performance at 1v1 but for sure the next patch they need some buff.

The biggest nerf I see in Cumans. Cumans only has the two TC boom as Eco bonus what is very risky at the same time because a forward castle drop of the enemy could end the game fast.
And early castle drop and Kipchaks carry this civ. Frame delay is a huge nerf, the only reason I like to play with Cumans. Now Cumans are civ that carried by their Knights. I see Cumans now not as a mid tier civ anymore. 0 pick rate, thanks for nothing. This nerf is only because pros complain about the strength of the zero frame delay.

Conclusion we have now potentially 3 civ out of low tier and 2 civ from mid tier to low tier.

3 Likes

And I would have switched to Knights, since I was already in the Castle Age when he was Feudal.
Getting that Gold mining and Lumber upgrades super fast, allows you to Farm Boom while still keeping up Archer production.

It is really too strong, in my opinion, but I suppose we should give it time to adapt.

2 Likes

Thanks, good to know.

Well, for me it seems like interesting buff then. Time will tell if it’s too strong. Ports definitely needed something.

Things that come to mind are:

  • Might get tech advantage in dicy situations, like early castle age getting crossbow/bodkin arrow earlier then other archer civs.
  • Better FI due to chemistry being faster to research.
  • Slight economic bonus due to eco techs coming earlier into action.
1 Like