No TC starts + Villager fights

The ■■■■? That nerf had nothing to do with a douche. Persians were pretty much the only civ played because having a faster working TC in dark age, means more villagers, better eco and a faster age up. They were simply OP when played standard.

Also how is vil fighting on nomad “fun”? It results in a game that is shorter than the queue time. I dont really see any point in it. both players lose if one starts to vil fight.

Aka the average game experience nowadays -_- (exaggeration, but games are so short nowadays that sitting in queue is such a big portion of “gameplay”)

I didnt played a lot on Voobly before, because many people seemed kinda arogant when you came from HD like: “oh you are from HD, then you are a scrub” but despite my limited Voobly experience I would also say that on HD and Voobly people had more Honor then in DE.
And it seems to get worse.

I play DE since a few months after its release, and by my experience people are playing more often like a douche nowadays. Its also not because of elo imo. Last summer i was peak rank 997 and now Iam around 1600 again (which is around top 2k), so the elo is pretty similar, but I still see much more people going for Noboru rushs, Hoang rushs, Vil fighting, Laming, etc. (idk how its on the lower Elos personally. Please tell me your experience if its differently)

Noboru and Hoang are also not liked a lot but debatable, while Laming and Vil rushs are normally considered bad manner by most people.

Its hard to say why in DE more people fight without Honor. Maybe its because DE has a higher focus on ranked, and some people just do what ever it takes to win, no matter if they have to sell their soul, or if its just because in HD/ Voobly there was no match making system.
No match making system means people could remember your name and just kick you out of the Lobby if you are a known lamer, while with a match making system you cant be punished for bad behaviour.

Tbh I think its sad that some games have become so toxic, I mean lets be honst: 99% of the community hates to get lamed or Vil fighted, because its Bm and sometimes even just abusing of bad game mechanics, which could even be considered right down cheating (laming: to little investment, to luck based, to much impact for minimal investment → just unfair).

It would be nice to see the community go back to how it was in the past, with more respect to the unwritten honor codes, and respecting the common Gentlemen’s Agreements of no laming/ Vil fighting to improve the atmosphere and overall fun of the Games. I mean personally i always send sheeps to my Enemy if i find theirs if they didnt lame me themself, which is just a good thing to do to have a fair Game. After all a game should be won by the best player and not by the more lucky one, because sometimes Map generation is just so bad thats its 100% luck to find your sheeps before your opponent.
(ofc these problems could be fixed with more fair Map gens, but moving sheep and boar spawns closer to the Tc to ensure that might also upset some people)

In voobly/HD, vill fights weren’t a problem because if you are known for doing those things, people would not let you join the lobby. and it was solved that way. Now you can’t just tell people to not do it.

Also, Voobly had some sort of special data mod for nomad that players sometimes used, that made vill fighting only 1 attack before TC was up.

Laming happens a lot more because the changes in the game encourage it. Can’t reliably wall my base in Arabia? Well, enjoy getting lamed and tower rushed, because I find games where we raid each other with scouts while ignoring each others militaries to be… pretty boring. (mind you, my post was in general, not just nomad)

Vill fighters on Nomad deserve permaban

Yeah but its still sad that some people only honor a Gentleman’s Agreement if they would be punished otherwise.

After all a Honor code exists to improve the fun of the Game for everybody, even for themself, because obviously people who get lamed a lot get mad and then might start doing the same out of revenge.
For example I once developed a laming strat which would go forward with a scout to steal sheep, kill a boar with a Vil and then kill the dear with a Lithuanian fast Drush while walling their stone. Then transition into Trush with forward Archers, all of this to get revenge on well known Lamers.

Laming and other sorts of BM plays are like a toxic disease which spreads by encountering it, which is why I think we all should try to play with some honor and respect, to make the Games more fun for everyone, and by this even for yourself.

After all you reap what you sow.

Kinda sounds like your doing this indiscriminately. Not everyone lames and either you do or you don’t its part of the game. Just be faster or learn to adapt. I pull in boars early and use sheep to scout to reduce the rare times simeone tries to lame.

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Yes, but on any other map you have direct counterplay. If a persian player drops his TC next to you on nomad, you move your half-built TC or you lose the game. Meaning: You lose the game, unless you villfight him away.

If you take away the villfight aspect a Persian can literally drop his tc three tiles away from you and completely deny your TC usage and kill you, and you won’t see the vills until the TC foundation pops up to try to block it. With villfighting you can push away the threat, and without it Persian douches on Nomad are uncounterable.

This is not the same as other maps, it’s distinctly different for these reasons. You aren’t gaining an advantage while the Persian attempts to drop you. You’re coming closer and closer to losing outright.

AoE should spawn just one vill per player, evenly distribute players across map, make sheep not act as acouts, and make nomad maps bigger so players aren’t in each other’s space

I can describe you detailed why this argument is wrong,
but most people wont read a big text, so in (rather) short:

Laming is luck based, not skill based. The argument learn to adept is completly nullifyed by that fact. Sheeps can spawn very far outside, or very close. If one player has a lucky spawn he finds all 8 instantly and can go cross map. If the other player then is unlucky and has his sheeps far out then it can be that he cant find the sheep before his 3th circle around his base, while the enemy can do 1 circle and then be lucky and find the enemy sheeps by luck while he still does his second circle.

The same logic applys to boars.
(and before you say luring back a boar requires skill: every 1300+ player can do that, its no skill, its something normal. And laming has higher impact at higher elos because build orders become more tight)

Also you cant adept, you can only try to minimize the Dmg. Losing 1 boar to a lame makes a Food disadvantage of around 700 food (~350 food lost and 350 gained for the other). You are factually playing from behind by this moment, which means you cant adapt and just try to minimalize the Dmg.
Thats also the reason why in pro play most players go Drush Fc if they get lamed, because a normal feudal Age play is impossible with such a huge disadvantage vs equal players. Hidden Cup 3 Finals are a famous example of laming ruining a hyped Finale. For more detail on this stuff look Nilis Video on why laming should be forbidden: Stealing boars should be banned in (competitive) AoE2 - YouTube

In the end its a non risk action. You lose a bit scout hp for a 700 Food Dark Age advantage. Ofc you can get your second boar together with your first to avoid getting boar lamed, but this would mean you rot away like 100 food, also giving you a big disadvantage only because the existence of the bad mechanic.
And btw 700 Food in Dark age is MASSIVE, because resources are worth more earlier in the Game

All in all Laming is a luck based mechanic, with minimal investment which gives a to big advantage for its minimal risk, which is also highly luck based and by this less competitive.

Ofc it could be fixed with some easy adjustments.

For example ways to fix this laming Problem:
- The starting Scout cant attack Boars like dears. (the fact Scouts cant attack dear and gets killed 1v1 by the boar implies that the Devs 20 years ago thought about this problem, but didnt thought back then that people could lure them back. By this it wasnt intended originally probably)
With this Change you couldnt lame boar/ Dear with the starting scout and would have to either send a Vil or milita. Sending a Vil/ milita would be a bigger investment and by this punish an unsuccesfull lame. A higher risk would justify more its huge potential gain. Huge gains without risk are normaly just unbalanced, huge gains with a meaningful risk are more balanced.

- Sheeps have a much closer max spawning radius. Boar and sheep can spawn in a tile radius with a minimal and maximum distance. Because of this sometimes sheep can spawn so far outside that its hard to find, resulting in situations in which your enemy can find your sheeps before you.
By reducing the max spawn radius Sheep would spawn much closer, making it findable on the first to latest second circle around your base, removing the possibility of not finding it in time. Best solution would probably be to make it as close as your berrys as a max to prevent cheese strats in which people go cross map instantly (which also is a no risk strat, bcs 4 sheep + 2 boar are enough to go feudal, and you can find both boar with sheep scout very consistantly)

with these changes laming would still be possible with Vils or a drush, but it would require an investment and justify the potential insanly huge gain by an acctual risk of potential lose in the case of failure. Sheeps couldnt be found by your enemy by luck, but still be stole from under your TC if you miss micro.
Over all it would remove some luck based aspects and make the Game overall more skill based and competitive.

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got any semi recent poll to justify that 99% i dont think, the number of players who dislike laming is significantly if any higher than half. The only people i’ve seen who are against laming are either old voobly players, who think hun wars are fun, or bootlicker streamer fanboys who just repeat what (insert streamer) says.

You’re offtopic, and I disagree with your opinion, therefore you are doubly wrong. (sheesh, tough crowd)

Instead of further pushing this offtopic into the subject of laming, I’ll give you my rebuttal to Nili’s video and hope you move your discussion there or leave it at that.

You disagreeing with my opinion does not make it doubly wrong. You need to get off your high horse mate. Just Not even going to continue with this, only wanted to give you a friendly advice about this kind of provocative opening statements.

Basically, I agree with what @DjBillE said about the topic. There is always going to be some element of luck even in a game like AoE. If you don’t like it, play maps with no early aggression. In maps like Arena, or Islands no one can lame you etc.

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Sarcasm does not necessarily come off as obvious on the internet. I’m also not a native speaker of English, so it’s even more difficult for me to see past the basic meanings of words and sentences. I know, that’s a personal problem, but that’s the only explanation I can provide.

Don’t be provocative and people won’t be provoked.

Nomad is 100% luck based and not skill based. I have had my 2 vils start right next to berrys, wood , gold, and two boars. I have also had to travel to have more then wood. Its also luck if your opponent gets a poor starting location messes up on a boar lure, builds mill/lumber camp/ mining camp poorly. Its luck if you start a drush before scouting the enemy base to find it with lithuanians. There is a lot of things that come down to rng. Is it skill if your resources are forward and the enemies are back. Is it your skill if the enemy fails a boar lure or is it luck for you they messed up. I suppose its skill if you are matched with the slightly worse player making his way up the ladder. Maybe its also skill if your opponent picks the direct civ yours counters. This whole idea of it being skill vs luck is dumb. For every decision to be skill based you would have to have everything the same. You may as well just play mirror matches every game. Does it suck when you are at a disadvantage yes you know what you do just move on and try your best. You thiink in iraq i could go yo mister terrorists you got rhe drop on me im going to need to restart this encounter so we are both on equal ground. Lol why worry about it in a game. Your not trying to run a comp and nothing is against the rules. You all whine about how it ruins the fun. Have you considered that is the entertaining part for the other player. Maybe his version of skill is being able to pick off the vill or boar and continue to run an eco. There are even those like me who enjoy the challenge of being at a disadvantage and overcoming it. Thats true skill to me. Its the choses you make to win not doing the same thing over and over agian. Thats why random maps are nice its not the same map everytime. Same with nomad it changes alot.

Im touched we actually agree on a topic. I usually have an opposing opinion with you.

I dont think villager fights should be a thing. I dislike Nomad a lot but I know its one of the maps that a good portion of the community loves, so I would rather if it stayed on rotation, however I would also like to have more bans because I dont want to play it and anytime it pops up I hope someone altf4.

I would say about 50% of my Nomad experiences have been villager fights (game ends minute 2), TCs almost touching (game ends minute 4) or “one of those games” where you end up in between two opponents, get towers from one to slow you down (keep you in Feudal) and a castle from the other near your TC to kill you before you can reach Castle Age.

I personally do not like this kind of game, winning or losing, it feels very cheap.

we don’t want villager fights when it takes 30 minutes to start a game after 7-minute-long queues and 4 rounds of toxic alt+f4 players dodging settings

the RNG is fine if the queues were quick, but when we wait a long time for a game we kind of want to play a decent one and not a lamefest

i don’t even like nomad, but it’s the only way to play without that silly position-picking setting, so it ends up being one of the only maps that doesn’t turn into the same repetitive xbow-spamming garbage.

it’s also the only land+water map in the pool most of the time, so it’s important to make it fun. (land-only gameplay is a shallow version of AoE that’s also less balanced for teamgames as it makes knight+xbow spamming civs very overpowered). the new nomad script is too scenario-like. they should just go back to the old one and reduce the number of hills

I think that most forget ranked is a competitive que. They should add a none competitive que with a hidden elo and unlimited bans to help those who want casual play.