I guess they think they’re in a martial arts anime
I think they’re reluctant to touch them because the starting point is so bad and to do them justice would take a complete overhaul. The consulate/export mechanic is so terrible that they don’t want to add more Asian civs, but it’s too entrenched for them to be comfortable with eliminating it. They couldn’t even commit to the nerf to the new tea export card.
One of my next mods of “historical series” was to replace Chinese Hero for a General and Disciples for Bodyguards. I already did one that changes the camel for a horse on sowars and a spearman for India instead of the Rajput. Sadly is not MP friendly.
The fact that the asians are depicted wrongly in a very orientalist way doesn’t mean that both Natives and Asians deserves a rework.
What
(20 characters)
Rephrased. Yeah, it was very badly written, sorry.
Yes, I don’t see why not…
Good point…That’s true…
Well it was the only way they found that the native civs could “mine” so to speak…
Since the origin of all arguments is that the name of the civ does not adequately match the content of the civi, then renaming would be the most efficient method in theory. It’s indeed unlikely to go back to “Sioux,” as that would be tantamount to denying what’s been done in the past, but other terms are still worth discussing, and I think there’s own value in even broader terms like “prairie nations.” Of course there may be better ones.
Who knows? At least recently, the dev is very positive and active about updating the old civs. This is very appreciated.
I don’t think the consulate mechanic is terrible design. It effectively reflects the political and economic interactions between the West and the East at the time. Anyone familiar with Asian history knows how important these are to Asians. Also, Export is an auxiliary resource, not as important to the civ as African Influence, and it is not suitable to compare the two and draw disappointing conclusions in my opinion.
Mastering the Portuguese musket technique was one of the keys to the unification of Japan to the clans, and the stable trade with the Dutch was the origin of Japan becoming a power in the future (that is, now). Not to mention China. Today’s Shanghai and Hong Kong can become world-class metropolises because of the trade and political wrestling between China (Qing) and Europeans (mainly British), otherwise they would be just sparsely populated fishing villages.
The real disappointment is the presence of monk heroes and buildable wonders, but some of their mechanics can still be kept. Removing inappropriate religious elements and the display of the homeland’s landmarks appear in foreign places, which are just changing the platforms of the mechanics, and the essence of the mechanics on the platforms, which some heroes’ abilities (building shrines, training followers) and wonders’ effects and abilities (training banner armies, Informers, Inspiration, etc.) can still be preserved. 100% accuracy and entire rework are not required. These are all mentioned in my list of suggestions for Asian civs.
I believe this is an issue about balance, not historical accuracy.
Whether it is AoE2 or AoE3, there is almost no official prior commitment to the balance adjustment, which is a tradition.
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I think it’s silly to rename the civ, especially tu an umbrella. Much better to rename the techs and units
Perhaps youare right. 
That’s why I said it worths discussing, even though my opinion is renaming is not such a bad thing.
Regarding the units and techs renaming suggestion, I remember Ana had posted a thread about it a long time ago, like renaming Cetan Bowman to a better term or something, and I am open with that. It would be nice if doing so can avoid from having to rename the civilization or the entire rework, but today what she’s asking for is still an entie rework. I hope she understands that sometimes compromise can win more, because at least I’d love to see more accurate content too.
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This thread really feels like people want their history based war simulator, where all the units are unique, all the techs are unique and nothing is shared, so no scope of carrying over your learning from one civ to next, because that’s how it is in real life with its nuances. It is fun enough with new unique units in every new DE patch, but I can only wonder the awesome mess if all units ingame were culture specific, unique units with unique techs which respects and references every last bit of history about that culture/civ.
It wouldn’t be a competitve online RTS, but would be an awesome game tbh. Kind of like a Total War game lite + Mount & Blade with Aoe gameplay mechanics.
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But that’s already the case.
Lakota and Haudenosaunee have a nearly completely unique roster of units, technologies and home city cards.
The question is why are Lakota the least popular Civilisation, despite just getting a rework?
This argument has been brought up before, and the problem is that even when they were the “Sioux” they weren’t actually a representation of the various nations, but still a generic combination of stereotypes pertaining to plains tribes.
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To someone who knows as much about the prairie nations as I do, it’s obvious the differences between the various prairie nations are just as different as they are between the Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese.
Those four all share a common “aesthetic,” but nobody would dare try to claim that you could portray all four well with a single civilization. The same stands true of the prairie nations - and the only reason I call them the “prairie nations” is because the great plains of North America are ungodly large and covers a massive area that all these nations used to facilitate trade. The Iron Confederacy shares less than nothing in common with the Comanche, the Oceti Sakowin are a mix of western woodland cultures and prairie cultures. The Shoshone are from the Great Basin and the prairie, the Cheyenne are more used to the mountains than the prairie. The prairie is only a commonality the nations all share, it is not, by any means, some all-encompassing trait that makes these civs identical.
Even if you go for the generic “Oceti Sakowin” instead of the Lakota, the civ would be just as accurate. The underlying problem is that the civ itself is so generic, it could represent any number of civs just as accurately as each other - none of them would be more accurate than the others.
The civ doesn’t have any distinct features to make it any specific nation - It’s just a generic amalgamation of untrue stereotypes that have no relation to any of the cultures. About the only thing the game gets right is the hunting culture - beyond that, nothing about it is particularly relevant to any of the prairie nations.
The civ design lacks specificity as the result of a lack of research into the culture during its creation. Other cultures get military units designed and named after historic regiments and techs based on their specific cultures - like the Voyageurs card for the French or the Keeper of the Rats from India. The Lakota don’t have a single economic card specifically relating to Lakota culture, and only a single unit based on Lakota history.
I don’t think this can be fixed without breaking changes to the game. Maybe they could rename units but fundamentally modifying Lakota to be something else is not something i would like. Unless they come up with a different civ that plays the same as lakota.
I thought about the gameplay and had some ideas how to replace the current Community Plaza and Tribal Marketplace.
Those concepts are gameplay first.
Mountain Monastery
A building that is build on top of a mine (limit 1/Age) that slowly mines the mine. Only Healers can work there (potentially also other special units but not villagers).
The difference to the actual mountain monastery is that it still works at half speed (both the trickle and the workers) when the mine is depleted.
Mines also last 2x as long because of that.
Maybe generates XP too.
Can train Healers for like 200 Food so they are more expensive then villagers.
Researchers unique technologies that replace some of the Ceremonies.
It can unlock the special ability to slowly train bison or trees instead of collection coin in lategame. Alternatively train Tokala Soldiers.
It is available for Lakota and maybe Haudenosaunee.
It will of course have a different name and visuals. I just used that name because the mechanics are similar.
New Tribal Marketplace
Now functions like the African Granary but instead of hunt giving more food you get extra coin.
Coin from trees for Haudenosaunee.
Now researchers all Market technologies and all technologies from the Farm and Estate (no Estate for the Lakota)
For the Lakota it unlocks the ability to set a percentage of Hunted food that is converted to coin.
Might be available for Inca and Aztecs too but for a different task.
Market
Now costs 2x as much, doesn’t research market technologies anymore but can train mercenaries and outlaws.
Lakota get access to US outlaws.
Aztecs potentially to Mexican outlaws.
Captured Mortars are available here now.
Each civilisation gets a new unique Artillery unit in Industrial Age here too.
Lakota get captured Horse Artillery.
Aztec and Inca get captured Falconet or Culverin (without horse and therefor slower).
Alternatively the Light Cannon but that would take away Haudenosaunees unique feature.
Temple
Replaces the Community Plaza for Aztec and Inca.
Can train Warrior Priests and Priestesses.
Researches unique technologies that replace some of the ceremonies.
Might still have some ceremonies but villagers can’t work on them anymore.
Limit of 1.
Trains Skull Knights.
Warriors
Now work like US Minuteman. Global Cooldown but can be send from every Town Centre.
Lose HP half as fast when near allied buildings (and only down to 50%).
Lose HP twice as fast when near enemy buildings (down to 1 HP).
Spy
The all get a new Spy unit. This unit is a European (to spy on Europeans) but is equipped with a blow dart that allows to set one unit to sleep for a few seconds (charged attack).
Civilisation changes
I think a few things should be reconsidered. For example the Lakota never owned a cost line but in AoE3 they have to fight on island maps. They will never be realistic there but it’s stupid to have super strong canoes.
Haudenosaunee
Get access to a version of the Fluyt that can’t train units but is stronger in combat in Fortress Age.
Longhouse now costs 200 Wood but houses 25 population. The model is larger to reflect this change.
Longhouses can now generate trees in lategame (alternative mechanic to the one mentioned earlier).
Lakota
Lakota can train a modified version of the Steamer that can’t train units in the Fortress Age.
Buildings can now move by default. Town Centre always starts packed.
War Chief upgrades are less strong but an additional one can be send from the Home City.
Most of the changes above focus on Lakota so not much more here.
Aztecs
Get access to a beefed up version of the Galleon that can’t train units in the Fortress Age.
Nobles Hut units benefit from Promotions. (maybe even all Aztec units)
This reflects the focus on promoting successful soldiers in the Aztec society. Your rank was determent by how many enemies you captured.
This should offset the fact that there are now ceremonies anymore.
Get access to the Salteador in Industrial Age.
New unique cavalry unit in Industrial Age.
Inca
Also get access to a beefed up version of the Galleon that can’t train units in the Fortress Age.
Get access to the Salteador or a new unique unit in Industrial Age.
New Bolas Riders in Industrial Age.
Mapuche
Should be added as new Civilisation as a DLC as part of the Natives Rework.
They would share the new Infantry unit and the new Bolas Riders with the Inca but can train them in Commerce or Fortress Age already.
The Mapuche stayed mostly independent until late into the 19th century and therefor should have access to modern weapons like the Lakota.
But this is not supposed to be about the Mapuche. Just saying that this would be the perfect change to add them.
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They are all members of the Sinosphere, so you feel that they are different but “similar”.
But my reply at the time was for your example at the time.
If you compare these peoples with the prairie nations of North America, I think it is obviously unreasonable. The culture shock a Vietnamese feels in Moscow, I can reasonably deduce, is greater than a Shoshone feels in a Cheyenne tribe. Perhaps you also noticed this, so you narrowed down your example to Sinosphere.
Anyway, if the reality is that there is only one civilization we can have in Europe, which includes French Cuirassiers, Russian Streltsy, the German swordsmen, Dutch economy, Spanish navy, etc., I can accept that this civilization is named “Europeans” because they are all in Europe. If the reality is that there is only one civilization we can have in such big Asia, which includes Japanese samurai, Korean archers, Chinese firearms, Mongol cavalry, Indian elephants, etc., I can accept that this civilization is named “Asians” because they are all in Asia.
My stance is the same for North America. Europeans and Asians and “Prairie Nations” are all somewhat awkward names, but they don’t violate the definition of the civilizations, still valid names. Since the reality is that cutting out the superfluous (eg. making Europeans to French, Asians to Japanese, Prairie Nations to Lakota) is difficult, the value of these umbrella names cannot be denied (even if still some people can’t like it), because it makes any content echo its civilized name.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge fan of renaming civilizations. Those explanations are just to clarify that we undeniably still have this solution, and whether it is satisfactory or not, it does work. It would of course be better if there was some ways that would satisfy most people without having to completely remove the essence of the gameplay and 100% rework the civilization (even though somebody like you might have to make some compromises) since it is more likely to get an update that way.
Many of these units are fit in the time of Qing Dynasty who controled both today’s China and Mongol and makes sense that they contain units from these two nations.
And Chu Ko Nu is traditional Chinese archer.
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