North America, Lakota, Hauds, and a new DLC: Poll

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

Tanya yahi!

Welcome!

So I’ve come to the conclusion that these smaller changes the devs have made with the Lakota and Haudenosaunee just aren’t enough - Surprise, surprise, haha. Who would have thought that I figured that out?

But this leads me to try and figure out a potential way for the Lakota and Hauds to be rebuilt from the ground up in a way that is both better for their gameplay (which is currently 1-dimensional and does irresponsible things with their power budgets) and better for cultural representation… which, no doubt, y’all are tired of me pointing out as being terrible.

So I’ve made a poll to ask your opinion of this idea - The Lakota and Hauds need more than just a minor brush-up, they need a complete rehaul from the ground upwards to meet the standards of the newer civs and the more easily accessible information available on both civs from which to craft a fun, diverse, and culturally-accurate civ from.

Would you be interested in a third North American (not Mesoamerican) Native American civ, released on its own with the intention of reworking the Haudenosaunee and Lakota into more culturally accurate civs and a new "culture/region" framework established for these three civs?

I firmly believe that no amount of minor reworks will ever be enough to make the Hauds and Lakota into respectable stereotypes (haha) rather than useless and (more than) slightly offensive depictions of Native Americans. Both societies have a myriad of cultural foundations to draw from to create a good foundation for them, and they share enough qualities to create a new culture/region that one could add a third civilization to.

Additionally, the Lakota and Hauds both have severe power budget and foundational design problems that simply can’t be addressed without breaking apart the foundation they’re built on - both civs are forced to be strong in the early game due to their lack of a late-game, which is in turn caused by their strong early game due to access to the Community Plaza and focus on natural resources. It’s nearly impossible to budget out an economy focused on natural resources without rehauling the estate and mill system throughout the game - but what would be the point of that? You’d end up back where you started. Clearly, this forced playstyle isn’t enjoyed and nor is it fun, as both civs are in the solid bottom half (or just straight-up dead last in the case of the Lakota) for the megapoll on everyone’s favourite civs.

Also, be sure to leave ideas for a potential third Tortuamerican civ - I know the Comanche would be a popular choice. Personally, I’d like to see the Haida in the game.

Wopila kichiyawa!

Thank you for reading!

PS

I can create another post or simply add in comments at a later point about what I believe should be the foundational *core* of this new *Tortuamerica* (I don't know what else to call it, there's no word to specify "North America, but minus Mesoamerica") region/culture, of which I already have a fairly solid idea for with an underlying set of characteristics that tie many Tortuamerican cultures together.

That is, if y’all are interested to read about it.

  • Tóŝ! (Sure, why not?)
  • Hóh! (Absolutely not!)

0 voters

PPS

I have questions about a similar concept for the Indians, about dividing them into three distinct civs with a new expansion, similar to (might actually be the exact same concept) as AoE2's "The Dynasties of India". Might make a poll about that at a later point.
6 Likes
2

Do you only care about making your living habits appear in the game, and don’t fully consider the need for aoe3de to do so? The devs have reworked the sound of the game units twice for Lakota and Haudenosaunee, and changed the gameplay, I think that’s enough, for a game that doesn’t have multiplayer at all, you’ll justcomplain, complain，complain，Important things are said three times.

5 Likes
3

please calm down, it’s just a game, rts game, not your sims game

3 Likes
4

For me:
Interested in the third North American Natives? May be.
More interested than Danes, Brazilians, Muiscas, Mapuches, Congolese, Persians, Omanis, Siamese? No.
If we can’t get more than 8 new civilizations in the future, still any interest in the third North American Natives? No.

I think the community would always be interested in a new civilization. Look at the United States and Mexicans, even the community did not expect revolutionary states to become complete civilizations at first, they are now embraced. It’s just that, as we all clearly know, the game won’t have an infinite number of civilizations. That’s the real issue you should care more than what people think about the third North American Natives.

9 Likes
5

The Lakota have 11 techs that are actually from Lakota culture and one unit. The Ottomans have more than that in their Mosque alone.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable of me to ask for better civs.

3 Likes
6

and you complain, complain and complain about her complaining.

This is a forum, people is free to speak. I doubt that devs will revisit the civs but she is free to write about it. Some devs like Tilannus had come from modding experiences where Germans were split between HRE, Prussia and Austria.

We have a lot of complains about the German mess, and guess what, nobody attacks speaking of them as a Woke or Native sims.

4 Likes
7

Germans is not a mess, like actually factually not. Sure you may think it is, but historically, culturally and gameplay wise it is simply not the case.

2 Likes
8

Changes to Germany will be implemented in the future, while changes to Lakota have already been done. So this non-gaming suggestion for Lakota should be discontinued. Because it doesn’t help the gameplay in any way. It just makes some people happy. Asian Civilizations are always worse than Lakota or anything when it comes to civilization design, but I know it’s just a historical style rts game, and I’m not complaining about that.
Because this is just an unpopular rts game, game, game, not real history, history, history.

2 Likes
9

Please read this again. There are 12 references in the entire civ that specify the Lakota - prior to the DE, there were more Cheyenne references than Lakota.
The civ is not Lakota. The Ottomans have more references to Ottoman history and culture in their Mosque upgrades than the Lakota have in their entire civ.

Addition: In the base game, there were zero Lakota references in the civ. There was more support for the civ being the Cheyenne than the Lakota, and the bad voice-overs would imply that the civ was a Cheyenne band trying to be bilingual in Lakota.

10

Half of the reworks have made them objectively worse. The tribal marketplace has got to be the dumbest thing in the game and needs to be scrapped or massively reworked. I don’t even want to play these civs because of this annoying change.

5 Likes
11

Then I suggest you take a look at the history of Asia, you will find that the Asian civilization designed by bhg is just like rubbish.

12

Obviously China, Japan, India, there are so many historical materials, books, pictures, weapons and equipment that have been passed down to modern times, but bhg will only refer to Osprey Publishing’s stereotyped East Asian atlas to design the unit

13

Updates are not limited to only one or two time. But it’s important to fairly give every civilization chances to having updates, and strike a reasonable balance between the game’s entertainment, historical accuracy, and acceptable development costs.

On the other hand, the Germans, Indians and Native Americans, their respective issues are actually quite different. Comparing them won’t do any help to improve the status quo.

About the Germans:

It’s a bit outdated due to the release of the new DLC, but the concept may be still good.

This answered your question.

5 Likes
14

I counted Indian references that are unique to India’s past and culture - I counted 49 unique techs and units throughout their home city and general techs available to them.

The Lakota have 12.

They might be stereotypical or incorrect or just weird interpretations of India’s history, but there was a concerted effort to reference India’s past and incorporate it into the game.

There was no effort done for the Native civs.

ADD: Again, note that all 12 of those were added with the DE, and most of them were added with the recent Lakota mini-rework. Prior to the newest update, there were 3.

ADD2: It’s not about “make them more accurate to history,” it’s about “make them the Lakota and not just a generic amalgamation of the prairie nations.”

15

I think there is something wrong with your calculation method, many cards of Indians are common to Asian civilizations

2 Likes
16

Then should I also send a request to let the Chinese become a dynasty, not a mixture of Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties. Please let the Japanese be a whole, not the Sengoku period and the Tokugawa shogunate, please let the Indians be the real Mughal Empire, not mixed with the East India Company.

5 Likes
17

From the tech tree alone:
Brahmin, Sacred Field, Ritual Bovine, Mango Grove, Rajput, Sepoy, Gurkha, Sowar, Zamburak, Mahout Lancer, Howdah, Siege Elephant (this straddles the line), the design of the fishing boat is unique in a historically accurate way, Terror Charge (stupid, but based on India and the stereotypes given), Crushing Force (again, see previous), all the Consulate options are built on Indian interactions with European powers, the Agra Fort, the Red Fort, and Delhi Gate, Charminar Gate, Karni Mata, Taj Mahal, the Tower of Victory, the Keepers of the Rats.

That’s from the generic techs available without delving into the Home City cards.

18

I don’t think you’re quite understanding what I’m saying - China is a weird amalgamation of the various Dynasties. I get that. I understand that.

But at least they’re Chinese.

Almost nothing about the Lakota civ actually makes them Lakota - I’m not asking to correct parts about the Lakota history in the game that is wrong, I’m asking that they put Lakota history into the game at all.

There are 12 things in the Lakota civ that are specific to the Lakota - Otherwise, there is nothing in the civ that is actually from the culture’s history at all.

I would love it if the Lakota were a weird amalgamation of Lakota history - It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if the Dog Days were Age 3 and the Tiospaye were the types of military units trained because at least there would be Lakota in the game, and it would be somewhat accurate.

But there isn’t even this base level of incorrectness.

1 Like
19

Why do you include wonder, can you also count the infinite bison, which is also unique to Lakota, and
black arrow ,lakato suppt ,sansarc suppoert ,burntigh suppt ,oglala suppt,nakota suppt,dakota suppt,santee support,yankton suport,earth bounty ,team baffalo hunt,9bison,ogletankavn,onikare, 13bison,great hunter,birch bark,…etc

2 Likes
20

I included the wonders because those are unique to India and reference India alone.

The Black Arrow is a Cheyenne religious aspect - I know nothing about it, but it isn’t Lakota.

I didn’t include shipments from other nations because those could theoretically be from any nation. I didn’t include Jat Lancers in my counting for India.

The bison shipments could, again, theoretically be for any prairie nation civ, like the Cheyenne, Arapaho, Blackfoot, Comanche, Shoshone, etc. If these civs were in the game, they could have that as well. So could “Great Hunter,” and the Lakota didn’t actually use birchbark canoes, so that one is just wrong to start with.

Ogle Tanka Un and Onikare are part of the count. There’s only 9 more unique Lakota aspects to the civ, though.

1 Like