If this true then Obuch is just a Serjeant with different skin, stats and armor reduction feature. Poles don’t have Donjon on their tech tree and probably that’s why Obuch can’t build one. But after conversion, Obuch becomes Serjeant as they are basically same unit and Donjon become available on the tech tree.
The player base has given developers very little information on infantry in terms of real combat dynamics, indicated an extreme aversion to early castle age UUs, and provided a very strong prior that the unit if not sufficiently strong or unique in some way would be ignored a priori and left unexplored.
It is an extremely good idea to err on the side of overpowered to gather data, rather than err on the side of underpowered and be left with almost no data due to various problems like Anchoring Bias.
The developers aren’t prescient. Please don’t act like they should be.
Huge hammer, no armor visible, 55 food 20 gold 95 hp, cheap elite upgrade, fast and same resistance vs arrows than a hussar…the unit doesn’t follow a single logic unit design, it shouldn’t be that fast carrying such weapon, or having high HP with low cost and specially 2 PA.
The unit is just designed to be above all the other units and have minimal counters, don’t tell me they didn’t know that only ETK or samurai would beat their new unit and making it so damn cheap.
They win vs jaguar cause of the high hp, only lose vs samu and elite teutonic knight, but well can you tell me jaguar cost per unit, upgrades and how bad they perform vs standard cavalry or arrows? such things that the obuch doesn’t struggle at all.
Nvm jaguar wins after all upgrades but still not even close in cost efficiency compared to obuch and obuch has that bonus that gets naked other units, making it like the best ultimate meat shield unit.
If they nerf Obuch, they will make the most tanky unit in Polish roster not viable to train. The unit is not op at all, they are good that’s for sure, but current Obuch design is on border between very good and bad.
Also healing replenish armor, so it’s not like armor debuff stays forever.
Jaguar Warrior is not universal unit and viable only on some occasions, because Aztecs is one of the best civs in the game.
It’s the best ultimate meat shield for Poles. Elite Obuch is only one unit in Polish roster that menage to have 2+3/2+4 armor stats with high hp (95).
That’s exactly what they should have done. People hate using infantry. It needed to be OP to get people to bother using it. Remember the serjeant? People barely used it and they had to give it a massive buff. Its still unclear if its underpowered. Once there’s a bunch of examples of which unit combinations make it OP they can pick and choose how to nerf it with much higher precision.
its just objectively OP comparing it to the existing infatry UU. look at elite berserks haivng no second pierce armor, 20 less hp, costing more gold, no special armor reduction ability.
obuch is clearly in another leauge.
the berserks good persk being slighly faster, can reg health and can get bonus dmg against cav are nice, and berserks are already one of the more used UU after all.
but the obuchs tankiness for its price and the support it gives to ranged units just puts it miles ahead.
if obuch arent OP then suddenly all infatry UU units appear to be.
if the devs wanted to release op civs for better sales then i fully excpet obuch and hussite wagons to receive nerfs directly to their stats after the devs considering it is time to balance what was intetionally broken
TBF I tell people since years that most infantry UUs are just trash. Some of them have situational usage, but in most cases they are just a complete waste.
So I need actually a showcase that the obuch is actually OP before I believe that.
I’ve seen some good comps with it, but poles more often don’t use it as the core of their army than they do. This is an indicator for it being not completely op, at least not being showcased so far.
Maybe a bit too strong for their price, but I miss a proof for the OPness yet.
Tbh I don’t get the argument that obuchs are unfair to other infantry UUs, I’m pretty sure that each and every one of those UU belong to civs that have a better barracks tree than the Poles. The unit isn’t even fast, it has the same speed as a champion, and since TK are already at 0,8 speed I don’t see the obuch speed dropping. I won’t lose sleep over a leather hood giving 2 pierce armour when no clothes at all can give 2 pierce armour too. I actually find it pretty tame for a just released UU.
I think it’s legit to question this but honestly this is more about other infantry UU being a bit UP… Especially now that champions have been buffed.
Samurais and jaguars are a concern, but even zerks, woads, TK could get a slight cost reduction. And even Sergeants by the way. I’m not even sure Jags trade gold effectively Vs Goths Champs, which feels very wrong.
Samurais could cost 65 food 25 gold and get up to 100 hp instead of having their cost reduced so they hold better their ground against ranged UU they are supposed to counter to some extent. They could even get bonus damages resistance (at least Vs UU).
Obuchs could be +5 food and still be fine. They’re noticeably tankier. I would happily trade a small nerf to give poles the last archer armor (the only buff that would make me happy for Poles ;-). Their gold cost can’t be increased unless poles get halbs (which I believe they can live without).