Yes current Germans represent 30Yrs war HRE, i.e. including Austrian lands (together with Bohemia). But it does not represent Hungary, Croatia, Italian lands, Ruthenia and other Balkan areas which were later part of Austrian lands or Austria-Hungary.
I dont accept “hey it represents Hungary because they have Hungarian revolution”. Well then I ask why do we have US in the game since we have US revolution option for UK?
“I think Austrians is pretty weird if you understand what the German civ entails. ”
Honestly, I dont understand… I know what Germany, Austria, HRE stand for… Current ingame Germans are a patchwork which should have represented the area between France and Netherlands on side and Russia and Turkey on the other side… But that has never been Germany… Its like adding US and saying it represents US and Canada and that is fine isnt it?
It was part of a union since 1867. Even before that year it played a significant role within Austrian realm. I can return to you the question in: is it OK to have Aztecs and Incas in the game while they were overrun before the year 1550 (cca)? I am not arguing I am saying we cannot use double standards.
No. Lets make Austria/Austrians/Austria-Hungary with similar technic like the last African civs have - they also represent many people as a part of their age up mechanic.
sure, but still a part of the Austrian monarchy. also we really going to argue that a faction that still didn’t actually exist in the last 10 years of the game somehow gets a special privilegie pass?
considering they are an actual independent faction and the first native nation to offer serious resistance to the Europeans? yes. they also get bonus points for being a very unique faction and culturally completely isolated compared to anything else in the game.
i wanna see a german rework, but it would still be germany, not austria and not prussia. minor ethnic groups like the yugoslavs should be native allies.
The only state that is more or less independent in the Balkans during most of that period that I can think of is the Ragusan Republic (1358–1808, Croatians). As a small state they survived by paying tribute to their powerful neighbors (Ottomans or Austrians), but they were a maritime republic and it would have been possible for them to pay and manage a New World expedition (like basically any civ with an access to the sea).
That’s a stretch, but I think they would be a nice adition. I like the idea of adding civs that will never appear in other AOE games, like Oman for exemple.
just read up on them, cool little city state, but not more than that, only a population of 30k around 1800, making less than half the population size of any of the european capitals. for example stockholm had a population of 60k people around 1700 (which i am pretty certain makes it the smallest).
i think they would be represented perfectly well as a minor nation, but i cant see them be big enough to justify as a faction.
So the huge Germany is one nation to you, as are the even more diverse South Slavs. It is a pity that you do not understand the definition of a nation and that nationalism only arose in the 19th century. The AoE 3 period is the time of great multinational empires, not nationalism.
Unfortunately, it looked bad with the other civs. A much better option is to add Croats as a Minor Nation (other Balkan nations as well) to the European maps - there the mention of the Republic of Dubrovnik would be perfect.
“But that has never been Germany”. The borders of modern day Germany are irrelevant. AOE have almost always created civs based on ethnic groups and nations (as opposed to nation-states). The concept of nation-states is relatively new – historically speaking – but it is a concept that people have been immersed in for the past century and so people have difficulty viewing the world in any different lens.
Today you would never say Austrians are Germans because they are not from the nation-state of Germany. In the 18th century you would say Austrians were Germans, primarily because they spoke German. Germany is called Germany because it is a land of German people. The country was named after the people, not the other way around.
Also it wouldn’t make sense for the Germans to have playable Hungarians or Balkanites on the basis that they were at one point a part of the Austrian Empire. Based on that logic, the Indians shouldn’t be a separate civ and instead Sepoys etc. would be regular selectable units for the British civilization.
Yes, but was independent except for foreing policy and military. I am not speaking about special privilige for Hungarians. I am saying Austrians (and all the nation headed by the crown of its empire) are not properly represented and should be added. I cant change my mind. It is as I see it
Good. But then we cant use argument of “independent existence”.
Here you have my support but still we cant escape the trap of trying to capture both Austria, Prussia and the rest of Germany into one state
I am sorry but that is irrelevant in my opinion. I cant present some units as German while they were not German at all. While current Germans have “Winged Hussars card” does it mean they also represent areas beyond HRE? And here comes my point with “There has never been Germany”. And it does not matter if we will call it HRE, Germany or Rhenish union or whatever…
In fact at that time I would say “Austrian Germans”… The whole point is that after 30Yrs war the ways of “Germany” and Austria had divided. While the “Germany” and Prussia (lesser extent) turned inward, Austria (Habsburgs) realised they could not unify HRE. So they turned to the east and south.
I didnt catch your point here… I am saying this part of Europe could be easily captured by “Austrians” in similar way as African civs…
germany by territory today is not actually that large, at the time its about the same size as france, and france isn’t 3 factions.
you know i looked at your idea for AOE 6 right now, why do you want germany to become 3 states? like i thought the idea for you was to replace germans with its 2 largest factions but instead you make 3 factions out of them, why?
personally i think that is too many maps for europe, people already complain about a lag of maps in south america, like how many actual maps would this be? 10 per DLC? that is a bit much dont you think?
yes we can.
with other words the only things that really matter in AOE. also its 1867, no faction that late has a basis in this game.
good for you but what will you do with the current German faction that has 3 Austrian units? that already a strong representation of a faction if you ask me. like seriously remove the capital, leader and needlegun and you essentially are left with Austria.
if you gave me a time machine would i have made different choices back in 2004? probably, but we have no such time machines which leaves us with the germans as a pan-national faction.
if i could do it id probably have not even put Germans in to begin with, since they weren’t involved in the new world, then they could have added them later and represented them in 2 civs.
but as it is right now we have 1 faction, 1 faction we can assume we cant remove and which like it or not has both Austrian and Prussian influences, sure it is not a pretty faction but beyond wishful thinking what would you do about it?
Guys,I think we all agree that a German civ to represent all people speaking German is not ideal, but it is what it is.
I’m not against revisiting the issue, but I think it would be better to get civs that have ZERO representation in the game, like what was proposed in the OP.
I meant the area inhabited by the Germans - From the Meuse to the Memel, From the Adige to the Belt.
I meant an area that included HRE, Prussia and Austro-Hungary - huge territory.
As one civ will never cover all of Germany - it is not possible.
Prussia and Austria-Hungary without the HRE would not cover Bavaria, Westphalia, Switzerland, Hesse, Hanseatic League or Saxony. You understand?
North America has 26 maps in this game, so 30 European maps are not a lot
This empire existed longer, simply in 1867 the Austro-Hungarian monarchy was established, but the crowns were tied together earlier - the same was with Poland and Lithuania, which only became PLC during the reign of Sigismund Augustus (the last of the Jagiellonian dynasty) in 1569. It was only the PLC that became a unitary state with the May 3rd Constitution in 1791.
It is simply an irritating argument from opponents of the Austro-Hungarian Civ, which has nothing to do with the gameplay in AoE 3.
There is no typically Austro-Hungarian unit. The Czech War Wagon dates from before the reign of the Habsburgs in Bohemia. Doppelsoldner is a common unit in Southern Germany. What is this third Austrian unit? - Landsknecht ??? It’s a similar situation to Doppelsoldner xDDDDD
It’s easy to convert and pass it on to the Prussians civ.
You don’t have to blame the mistakes of the past - you have to fix them.
It is very easy to make the current German civ “medieval” HRE - new Home City and Leader. Things like descriptions are easy to change and would not affect your entertainment. The only truly incompatible with HRE Germans civ is their UU - Uhlan, which can be returned to the Poles civ, and in his place another unit with the same stats (Polish Ulan would have the same skin, but would already have changed stats).
Prussian and Austro-Hungarian civ would bring a lot of new cool things to AoE 3 - definitely different from the current Germans civ.
I also think that we need a slight update for the older European factions. I feel like civs like Spanish, Brittish, Portuguese and French lack so much flavour compared to the newer civs like the USA or even Sweden. They could perfectly achieve this with some new Cards and maybe a new unique unit or building here and there.
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