Ornlu's 45 ideas to balance all 45 civs

[FurtherLime7936]

One Balance Change For Every Civ! (Feb. 2025) | AoE2: DE

[KHANATTILA]

There are many good points to be fair

[benithisrael]

Surprisingly, I liked the video and thanks @FurtherLime7936 . He tried shuffling some of the existing bonuses around different civs. It felt like a cleanup of the civs after 45 and before reaching 50 similar to person fixing their finances before retirement.

Here is the Summary and general changes suggested by ornlu and my opinion on them:

1. Militia line - Too weak
2. Fire ship - Too strong

Mytake - Everybody knows this. But at this point Militia-line having speed of spears or archers/skirms having their speed lowered would be the only fixes I can imagine especially with the skirm heavy meta now. Fireship speed can be toned down.

Civs:

• Armenians - ohh! boy - - Remove extra projectile of galley line and dromon. Blast radius of Cilician fleet.
  MyTake - Yup! removing the bonus arrow makes sense if they get range advantage late game.

• Aztecs - Carry capacity bonus changes from +3 → +5
  MyTake - Required now

• Bengalis - Remove ratha trample damage and give it to elite version.
  MyTake - Bengalis were poorly designed. FC → Ratha is the only thing keeping them viable in the game on open maps. They should have inherited Indians villager discount which would have helped with their elephants and scout rush. It also synergises with their Mahayna tech.
  Spawn 2 Vills per TC per age → Vills are 10/15/20/25 cheaper each age
  Ratha needs to be nerfed to its original stats similar to knight. But with minus 20 gold cost.

• Berbers- Change Kasba effect
  MyTake - No change needed

• Bohemians - Remove Siege Engineers from tech tree to balance Houfnice. Its speedy and has range.
  Mytake - FC → hussite wagon is more porblematic. Nerf speed of Hussite wagon to 0.6 tps. Increase cost of wagenburg tactics to 400 food and 400 gold.

• Britons - Make archery range work faster as before without changing team bonus
  Mytake - Agree. Yomen can make their archery ranges work 25% faster along with +1 range. The +2 attack of towers has already been taken away by Georgians. This change will make the effect unique again

• Burmese - Elite battle elephant 50% cheaper
  Mytake - Burmese don’t stack up against archer civs well. Elephant archer can allevate their archer problems. Civ bonus and Howdah applies to EAs could be a start. So many things need to be fixed.

• Burgundians - Change Flemish rev and nerf gunpowder attack
  Mytake - Agree

• Bulgarians - Stone mining upgrades are free and removed from Bohemians
  MyTake - They need an eco-bonus for early game and not for one trick pony krepost drops
  New bonus- Stable upgrades cost -50% food just like blacksmith

• Chinese - lose extra LOS of TC

• Celts - 20% infantry faster

• Cuman - Cuman merceneries, Second TC and Ram in feudal need re-work

• Dravidians - fish traps near docks and +15 carry capacity makes fishbooming hard and urumi spped buff.
  MyTake - There’s so many things wrong with the civ design and how devs try to fix the flaws. No answer to knights into Siege was a porblem in castle age but bbc in imp was given then 33% cheaper siege was given. Medical corps has always been useess. If 200 wood was not enogh, then @UpmostRook9474 idea of 10x wood per vill per age was enough to fix the problem and that idea was floating around for an year before 33% siege disount was given. Funnily Ornlu mentions this problem with ethiopions. The civ has unusable elephants due to weak economy.
  Receive 200 wood, 33% siege wood discount → receive 10 x wood the number of vills on arriving each age
  Medical corps → Mahouts
  new bonus - Elte elephant archer and Siege elephant upgrade are free (Elite elephant upgrades free)

• Ethhiopions - Scale 100 food and 100 gold bonus with each age or free halb upgrade
  My Take - Ethiopions need dual powespike each age
  Free pikeman is not enough, maybe heavy scorpion upgrade free.

• Franks - Remove forage bonus; Make castles 25% cheaper again
  Mytake - No changes needed

• Gujjaras - Nerf shrivamsha speed in castle age to equal scot cavalry

• Mytake - 0 pierce armour, 80 food and 7 attack for shrivamsha should fix the unit in caste age

• Georgians - oh! boy — start with a free mule cart but -50wood.
  MyTake -Drastic changes are needed
  Start with a free mule-cart → Mulecart are built and repaired 100% faster
  Mounted units regenerate 5/10/15 hit points per minute in the Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age → Buildings regenerate 5/10/15 hit points per minute in the Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age

• Khmer - Raise battle elephant speed bonus to 20% and remove husbandry, hussar upgrade
  Mytake - Khmer needs to be made into an all-out elephant civ with a few changes
  Scorpions have +1 range → Elephant units have +2 LOS
  Battle Elephants move 10% faster → Battle Elephants move 20% faster.
  Remove the 5% slower workrate of farms, Bloodlines, husbandry and hussar
  from tech tree
  This will give the civ an elephant spam capable playstyle

• Hindustanis - Increase the cost of Shatagni
  MyTake - Hindustanis are based on delhi sultanate and they rose up though their ingenious miitary planning as well as conquest using light cavalry, cavalry archers and the mughals did the same with gunpowder tech. Delhi was a backwater kingdom and Indian empires used to rise from Bihar. Delhi did not have good economy before Delhi sultanate rose up from there and almost conquered whole of India which is represented by the ‘Grand trunk road’ gold tech. The vill discount does not make much sense and in fact Bengal was a far more populous.
  Vills are 8/13/18/23 cheaper-> Cavalry armour upgrades are free

• Incas - reduce slingers default attack by 1 and add it to andean sling

[Zelley00]

Here my list (not necessarily better):

• Armenians: gain siege engineers
• Aztecs: villagers +1 carry capacity (to +4)
• Bengalis: decrease (elite) Rathas hp to 90/100 (from 105/115)
• Berbers: (elite) camel archers +1 range, -3 damage, +4 anti cav archers damage
• Bohemians: lose siege engineers
• Britons: lose +1 archer range in imperial (only +1 in castle age)
• Bulgarians: konnik cost 40f/75g (from 60f/70g)
• Burgundians: replace mperial UT: stable units +2 damage
• Burmese: add new civ bonus: monks +1 range
• Byzantines: nerf imperial UT: trample damage only affects infantry
• Celts: increase infantry speed from 15% to 20% (woad raider base speed unchanged, they go faster)
• Chinese: replace “non age up techs cost 0/5/10/15% less” with “non age up techs cost -10% starting castle age”
• Cumans: replace imperial UT: cav archers +2 range
• Dravidians: Urumi swordmen +1 PA
• Ethiopians: lose ring archer armor
• Franks: replace civ bonus +20% cavalry hp starting feudal age with +20hp starting castle age
• Georgians: lose civ bonus “cavarly regenerate hp”
• Goths: remove “villagers +5 damage vs hunt”
• Gurjaras: (elite) chakrams -1 range
• Hindustanis: nerf imperial UT: hand cannoners +1 range (down from +2)
• Huns: lose starting horse on nomad maps
• Incas: gain architecture
• Italians: move “gunpowder units cost -20%” to imperial UT and “trade carts cost -50%” to civ bonus.
• Japanese: replace civ bonus “cav archers deal +2 damage vs non skirm archers” with “range units deal +2 damage vs cav archers”
• Khmer: lose siege engineers
• Koreans: replace civ bonus “ship cost -20% wood, non siege range units cost -50% wood” with “all units cost -25% wood”
• Lituanians: change civ bonus: knight/letis get +1 damage per relic owned by the team (up from player only), up to a maximum of +2 (down from +4)
• Malays: lose husbandry
• Magyars: nerf imperial tech: cav archers get +1 damage (no +1 range)
• Malians: get gambesons
• Mayans: lose ring archers armor
• Mongols: nerf (elite) mangudai: -1 range
• Persians: savars - 1 PA and -1 damage
• Poles: update civ bonus: villagers regenerate 20 hp/min starting castle age instead of 0/10/15/20 hp/min.
• Portuguese: rework Feitoria: costs 250w 250s buildings in a 10 tile radius yield 10% more ressources
• Romans: nerf civ bonus: scorpions cost -33% gold instead of -60%
• Saracens: move “transport ship x2 hp and +5 capacity” to team bonus and “archer line +3 damage vs buildings” to civ bonus.
• Scicilians: new team bonus: farm upgrades also give additional food to existing farms
• Slavs: gain trademill crane
• Spanish: move “+25% gold trade” to civ bonus and “villagers build 30% faster” to team bonus
• Tatars: partians tactics not free anymore
• Teutons: nerf civ bonus: farms cost 40w instead of 36w
• Turks: chemistry can be researched instantly but is not free anymore (and 50% cheaper)
• Vietnamese: nerf +20% hp civ bonus: do not affect cav archers anymore.
• Vikings: update castle tech: infantry units deal +base damage against cavalry (Longswords +9, Champions +13, condotieri +10, etc…)

[RoaringMoose]

@benithisrael

his point Militia-line having speed of spears or archers/skirms having their speed lowered would be the only fixes I can imagine especially with the skirm heavy meta now. Fireship speed can be toned down.

I like Phosphoru’s idea, give MAA a bonus against walls.

[Tyranno13]

@Zelley00

Tatars: partians tactics not free anymore

Boo! BOOO!

@Zelley00

Japanese: replace civ bonus “cav archers deal +2 damage vs non skirm archers” with “range units deal +2 damage vs cav archers”

At least the current bonus makes sense for Japanese. This is just…why?

@Zelley00

Gurjaras: (elite) chakrams -1 range

Gurjaras aren’t even doing well atm.

[Darkillermon]

@Zelley00

Slavs: gain trademill crane

They lost that thanks to DM, why do you want to give it back?

[benithisrael]

That is also a good idea. Instead of +2, of Men@Arms get +4. It’ll be able to fullfil that role I think. Further upgrades can also add +2 essentially arson swordsmen in feudal age
Normally Ornlu lists and takes don’t make much sense because he always assumes the civ is fully boombed in imp and compares stuff. But this one was a bit more thourough

[Skadidesu]

The big takeaway from his video is that most civs don’t need to be changed, it’s just some units being to strong or too weak.

Cavalry Archers, Skirmishers and Light Cavalry being too strong and Swordsman being too weak.

Which in some ways is because of the current state of pathing. When pathing is bad it’s easier to use units that don’t need to touch the enemy (ranged units) or fast units that can compensate for the bad pathing (cavalry). Cavalry Archers just combine both.
Skirmishes counter Archers and Cavalry Archer so they are strong. Archers aren’t that strong because their main counter (Skirmishers) are not negatively affected by the bad pathing.

[AlphaCreator727]

We need a complete video from Ornlu about the units and about those civs than need more than one change

[TommoChocolate]

Classic Ornlu making a 30-minute video for something that would be better as a forum post.

I generally don’t take his balance judgements very seriously. He usually focusses on late-game high-resource situations, when he says “the meta” he really means “how the top 15ish players play”, and he completely ignores any kind of win rate or ranking stats.

Here, for example, he suggests buffing Huns (improving their cavalry archer discount) because they’ve been “powercrept”. Actually, Huns are currently ranked 3rd by win rate with a higher win rate at higher levels, despite (I think) having mostly received nerfs since they were first introduced. Meanwhile he suggests nerfing Vietnamese because they’re “overtuned”, even though they’ve been underperforming for years at most levels of play.

[Zelley00]

@Tyranno13

@Zelley00

Tatars: partians tactics not free anymore

Boo! BOOO!

?

@Tyranno13

@Zelley00

Japanese: replace civ bonus “cav archers deal +2 damage vs non skirm archers” with “range units deal +2 damage vs cav archers”

At least the current bonus makes sense for Japanese. This is just…why?

I don’t really care about historical accuracy, and I don’t see how it would make japanase too strong, or too weak, or not interesting anymore.
I like the idea to motivate japanese to go more often xbows and less often cav archers in t

@Zelley00

Gurjaras: (elite) chakrams -1 range

Gurjaras aren’t even doing well atm
[/quote]
They are not doing bad, they are not doing great, they are around average overall in 1v1, and have a very annoying 1 unit deathball.

I am aware not every change will please everyone, I am aware some will be too much and some too little. But if these 3 remarks are the main things making raise an eyebrow, then the list is way better balanced and less controversial than expected.

@Darkillermon

They lost that thanks to DM, why do you want to give it back?

Sorry, I am not a DM player. Are Slavs that good with trademill crane ? Is DM currently balanced ?

@TommoChocolate

Here, for example, he suggests buffing Huns (improving their cavalry archer discount) because they’ve been “powercrept”.

Yeah, I like most Ornlu content, but I strongly disagree that “Aztecs, Britons, Bulgarians, Burmese, Celts, Ethiopians, Franks, Huns, Slavs, Spanish, Tatars, Teutons” is an accurate list the overcrept civs.

[Tyranno13]

@Zelley00

?

As in, Tatars are not even that good a civ, why nerf them?

@Zelley00

I don’t really care about historical accuracy

Then why give any civ any bonus? Just randomly distribute them! Give Celts an Elephant bonus! Romans a gunpowder one!

@Zelley00

They are not doing bad, they are not doing great, they are around average overall in 1v1, and have a very annoying 1 unit deathball.

Then if they are average, leave them alone and concentrate on ones who are not.

@Zelley00

I am aware not every change will please everyone, I am aware some will be too much and some too little. But if these 3 remarks are the main things making raise an eyebrow, then the list is way better balanced and less controversial than expected.

Actually I commented on these because they are some of the civs I play most, and they jumped out at me.

[Darkillermon]

You dont need to build more than one house with slavs before 6 barracks/srtables and can pop out military units to rush or defend, does it sounds good?
DM is as balanced as it can be. Some civs super good, some super bad and others in between

[UpmostRook9474]

My version of balance list:

Necessary

Not all 45 civs but some of them.

Armenians

• Have access to Paladins.
• Receive Siege Engineers and Siege Rams.
• Remove additional projectiles of ships.
• The bonus Relic should not affect the Relic Victory.

They need more power in late games anyway. On the other hand, they don’t need to be so powerful on the water.
That bonus Relic shouldn’t be allowed to satisfy the victory condition since it isn’t even earned through any effort. Maybe it should have a unique look and name, like “Piece of the True Cross”, to distinguish it from regular Relics.

Bohemians

• Remove Siege Engineers, and Elite Hussite Wagons get +1 range in exchange.
  Or, make Bombard Cannons and Houfnices unaffected by Wagenburg Tactics.
• (Elite) Cannon Galleons are unaffected by Wagenburg Tactics.
• Either free gold mining upgrades or free stone mining upgrades, not both.

Houfnices and 4 free upgrades make them too strong in closed maps.

Bulgarians

• Receive Ring Archer Armor.
• University technologies do not cost wood.

Provide fully upgraded Cavalry Archers worth using in late games, and help their Cavalry Archers, Kreposts and siege weapons get Ballistics, Masonry, Architecture and Siege Engineers easier.

Burgundians

• Lose the gunpowder attack bonus.
• Replace the Flemish Revolution with “Culverins”: gunpowder units gain +25% attack.
• After the Imperial Age is researched, a “REVOLT!” button is available at the same place in TCs. It has a cost based on the number of villagers, enables Flemish Militia at TCs, turns all villagers into Flemish Militias like what the Revolution currently does, and additionally increases the work efficiency of TCs. This button can be disabled in the room settings.

When a tech’s effects has been considered to be banned in tournaments, that effect should be made optional in the room settings. Having TCs work faster can help train villagers and Flemish Militias.

The culverin was common in 15th century battles, particularly among Burgundian armies.

Burmese

• Revealing Relics is a civ bonus instead of a team bonus.
• New team bonus, like Knights and Battle Elephants +2 attack against standard buildings.

As shared Line of Sight is the default setting, the whole team can still see the locations of Relics.
Try to bring the old effect of Manipur Cavalry back partially with the new team bonus.

Chinese

• Lose Heavy Camel Riders.
• Start games with 1 free goat if losing the extra LoS of TCs.

This is aimed at the current Chinese. Actually we should wait for the update that comes with the next DLC before making a decision.

Cumans

• Cuman Mercenaries now makes the free Kipchaks garrisoned in Castles rather than waiting for training.
• Cuman Mercenaries also gives Cavalry Archers +1 range. (Not for allies.)

Prevent allies from intentionally ignoring or unintentionally forgetting those free Kipchaks, and make their Cavalry Archers worth using for players after both the UTs are researched.

Dravidians

• Receive 10 wood for every villager instead of fixed 200 wood whenever a new Age is reached.
• Lose the wood discount for siege weapons.
• Receive Elite Battle Elephant and Husbandry.

Encourage them to be aggressive with extra wood each age, like training sieges, and make them more capable of doing so, rather than aging fast.

Having Husbandry makes their elephants more useful, and gives them Elite Battle Elephant out of respect for their history.

Huns

• Hunnic Horse shouldn’t be able to convert livestock.

Helps prevent them from being too strong in Nomad-type maps where you may get a lot of sheep.

Khmer

• Lose Siege Engineers, and Elite Ballista Elephants get +1 range in exchange.
• Elephants move +10%/+20% faster in the Castle/Imperial Age instead of fixed +10%.

As Scorpions are better now, they may not need Siege Engineers when they already have +1 range from the team bonus and have the Double Crossbow.

Ballista Elephants can get fully upgraded cheaper and have a better speed. Having +20% faster and Husbandry the Battle Elephant can run from Halberdiers who have Squires.

Mongols

• The extra HP bonus for Scout Cavalry and Steppe Lancers is from the Imperial Age.

Nerf the early Castle age Steppe Lancer rush a little bit.

Portuguese

• Monastery units do not cost -20% gold.

They can save too many gold when going monk rush, especially when they can get critical Monastery technologies fast and have Feitoria.

Romans

• Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade.

Help them transit into the early Castle age before you haven’t accumulated the number of Scorpions yet.

Sicilians

• Farm upgrades not only provide additional food but also affects existing Farms.
• Mounted units receive 33% less bonus damage, while foot units receive 50% less bonus damage.
• Hauberk costs 600 food and 500 gold, reduced from 700 food and 600 gold.

Help them get a slightly better economy and military.

Vikings

• Swap the two UTs and reduce the cost of Bogsveigar.
• Have access to Siege Onagers.

They have trouble facing archers in late games. The Bogsveigar currently comes too late, so let their archers can have the capability to compete with other civs’ archers earlier. And also allow them to smash archers with Siege Onagers when Vikings still have resources.

---

Personal preferences

Unnecessary changes or lower priority changes, AFTER the necessary changes.

It's a long list!

General

Quoted from Add something new to the current tech tree.

TCs

• The Town Watch-line upgrades cost only food.
• Town Patrol can also provide TCs +1 attack
• “Town Defense” is introduced in the Imperial Age, requires Town Patrol, and provides TCs +2 attack (or more).

Researching these upgrades is encouraged, and makes TCs more capable of defending against late game raids.

Barracks

• “Military Drums” is introduced in the Feudal Age, providing infantry units +10% speed at a cost of about 100 food.
• Squires requires Military Drums, and only provides the Militia-line units +10% speed at a cost of about 100 food and 50 gold.
• “Fencing School” (or “Swordsmanship School”) is introduced in the Imperial Age, providing the Militia-line units +1 attack, and allowing the Militia-line upgrades to be researched almost instantly.

Infantry can get their speed earlier, and Militia-line can have a more useful speed in the other hand to chase units like spearmen and foot archers.
Fencing School is designed to help players transition faster in late games when they need Champions but still have only Militias yet.

Stables

• “Saddletrees” is introduced in the Feudal Age, providing mounted units +10 HP at a cost of about 75 food and 25 gold.
• Bloodlines is moved to the Castle Age, requires Saddletrees, only provides mounted units +10 HP, and gets cheaper by about 75 food and 25 gold.
• “Jousting” is introduced in the Imperial Age, requires the Paladin upgrade, and provides Paladins +20 HP at a cost of about 300 food and 100 gold.
• The base HP of Paladins is adjusted to 140 by default, and the Paladin upgrade can get cheaper by about 300 food and 100 gold.
• “Mahouts” is introduced in the Imperial Age, requires Husbandry, and provides Elephant units (or only Battle Elephants) gain +10% speed or more.

Providing more balancing tools, and slightly weakening the power of the Franks in disguise. The civs that don’t have Bloodlines can have Saddletrees for struggles in the Feudal.
For the civs with Paladins, the upgrades could be easier to obtain, but might take longer to get fully upgraded.

University

• “Catapults” is introduced in the Imperial Age, allows the Mangonel-line units and Trebuchets to destroy trees and berry bushes with the splash damage for every civ at a cheap cost of about 100 food and 100 wood.
• Dromons require Catapults for access.
• Siege Engineers requires Catapults, and costs cheaper by about 100 food and 100 wood.

Needing no prerequisite is too powerful for Dromons that are the equivalent of Cannon Galleons. Giving them a cheaper and faster prerequisite than Chemistry should be a good balance for Dromons when just reaching the Imperial Age.

Archery Ranges

• “Shooting Targets” is introduced in the Feudal Age, simply providing 100% accuracy almost instantly for every civ at a very cheap cost of 50 wood.
• Thumb Ring requires Shooting Targets, only provides faster firing instead, and gets cheaper by 50 wood.
• “Javelins” is introduced in the Feudal Age, unlocking the bonus attacks of skirmisher units against spearman units.

A minor change that allows civs without the Thumb Ring, like Bengalis, Britons and Vikings, to have the accuracy.
On the other hand, a more significant change to a bit delay the heavy use of skirmishers in the Feudal.

Blacksmith

• The Fletching-line upgrades don’t affect ships.

Dock

• The Careening and Dry Dock get cheaper and only provide +5 and +10 capacity respectively instead.
• “Bulkhead Compartment” is introduced in the Castle Age, providing ships +1 pierce armor.
• “Compass” is introduced in the Imperial Age, providing ships +15% speed.
• “Naval Archery” → “Springald Crew” (or “Oared Vessel Tactics”) → “Gunports” (or “Sailing Ship Tactics”) line is introduced to provide ranged ships upgrades for the range and attack.

Provides more balancing tools, especially to prevent non-archer civs from always having inferior navies.

Aztecs

• Jaguar Warriors cost +5 food, and have speed as fast as Eagle Warriors.
• Have “Butterfly Warrior” a unique upgrade replacing the Longsword, and the elite replacing the Two-Handed Sword and Champion.

The bonus against infantry doesn’t make Jaguars special anymore in today’s game, so at least let them decide to actively chase down enemies or escape from a disadvantageous fight.

Replace the least used Champion since the civ have high quality infantry UU that can defeat the fully upgraded generic Champion. The Butterfly Warrior can have a lower base attack but a attack bonus against cavalry. Although the bonus is lower than the Spearman line, it would be better able to face a variety of situations.

The papalotl (lit. butterfly) warriors were the third type of elite warrior to feature an explicitly animal theme. The member of them had taken three captives until he captured the fourth and were promoted to a jaguar warriors.

Armenians

• Receive not only Paladins but also Plate Barding Armor.
• Receive not only Siege Engineers and Siege Rams but also Siege Onagers.
• Use Lumber and Mining Camps rather than Mule Carts, with still +40% effects of the techs there.
• Lose the earlier accessible infantry bonus in exchange for cavalry taking less population space.
• Replace Cilician Fleet with “Cilician Engineers”: Scorpions and War Galleys +1 range; Mangonels and Dromons have additional projectiles.
• Receive Shipwright if Cilician Engineers won’t give War Galleys additional range.
• Fereters give cavalry good regeneration instead of +30 HP to infantry.

For historical accuracy.

Georgians

• Have access to fully upgraded Heavy Cavalry Archers and Warrior Priests.
• Lose the cavalry regeneration bonus in exchange for Monks restore faith faster.
• Aznauri provides +30 HP to Militia-line units and Warrior Priests instead.
• Have the Svan Tower become a unique upgrade replacing the Keep upgrade.
• A new Castle Age UT, like “Eristavi”, maybe to give their Knights a bonus against cavalry as long as they have no camels.

For historical accuracy.

Dravidians

• Not only have Barrack technologies -50% cheaper but also one of the below:
  • Allow the Man-at-Arm/Longsword/Two-Handed Sword upgrades to be researched one age earlier.
    (Brought from the current Armenians. Stronger but only benefit the Militia-line.)
  • Have the Forging-line upgrades double the effects.
    (Lose Blast Furnace. Weaker but benefit other units.)
• Remove Medical Corps, while the elephant regeneration becomes a civ bonus.
• New Castle age UT “Kaikola Corps”: Battle Elephants and siege weapons cost -40% gold.
• Urumi Swordsman rework:
  • The charging bar can also be used to dodge projectiles.
  • Still deals a blast damage but no increased attack when attacking with fully charged.
  • The basic speed and attack may be increased.

Try to make the Militia line and Battle Elephant line really useful.
There are extra wood. They don’t lack wood for siege weapons, while the gold discount can benefit Siege Elephants also.

The Urumi Swordsmen are agile martial arts masters who wear no armor, so it makes sense for them to move faster and be able to dodge arrows. They shouldn’t be able to deal charge damage when they can get closer to archers with higher survivability. The rework should allow them to play the role somehow similar to what Knights play for other civs and should avoid them from melting enemies so fast.

If needed, still can receive Redemption in exchange with Bombard Cannons.

Bengalis

• Elephant units now only receive 25% less bonus damage.
• Mahayana also make trade units and fishing ships take up -10% population space, and also gives elephants resistance to conversion.
• Receive Thumb Ring, but lose Arbalesters.
• The effect of Paiks is changed to have Battle Elephants and melee Ratha attack +20%.
• Lose the bonus that Cavalry units +2 attack vs Skirmishers, while melee Ratha have +2 attack vs Skirmishers in its basis stats.

The cost of Mahayana is too expensive for a tech useful only when players are able to reach the population cap, so make it more worthy with more effects. After stating trade in team games, the extra population room may even less than the 10 of the Goths as villagers would be deleted, so it needs to affect trade units at least. And having a fish boom would also have villagers trained less so it might also need to affect fishing ships.

The advantage of the resistance to conversion is meaningful only when you can afford enough number of elephants, and also the resistance to bonus damage is more useful than the resistance to conversion for the Armored Elephants in the Castle Age rush, so choose it to become a part of Mayahana too.

Trade the effects of Paiks on Elephant Archers and ranged Ratha for Thumb Ring. They won’t get worse and Archery Range units in the Castle Age can be better. As there are better Skirmishers, maybe the bonus attack vs Skirmishers can only belong to melee Ratha.

Burmese, Khmer & Malay

• Replace Cavalry Archers with Elephant Archers. No Elite upgrade for Malay.
• For Burmese, not only Battle Elephants but also Elephant Archers have +1/+1 armor and affected by Howdah.
• For Khmer, not only Battle Elephants but also Elephant Archers move faster.
• For Malay, not only Battle Elephants but also Elephant Archers have the discount.

It should be more accurate for them to use elephant archers rather than horse archers.

Malay

• Receive Arrowslits.
• Upgrade Docks to Harbors when Arrowslits is researched.
• Replace Thalassocracy with “Datuks”: TCs and Harbors have +2 attack; Knights have +4 attack.
• As long as they represent the Javanese, perhaps they can also have access to the Thirisadai.

Malays usually age up quickly so have a weak economy and not many military options available, so consider replacing the unused UT with something else. The Datuks can help the defense and make their fragile Knights glass cannons. The title datuk is a Malay title that originated in the 7th century and used to describe lesser kings or vassalized kings at the time.

Having Thirisadai not only reflects the fact that the model of the ship is based on the Indonesian Borobudur ship, but also works well with fast aging.

Britons

• Replace Crossbowmen and Arbalesters with Longbowmen and Elite Longbowmen, and adjust their stats for their new position.
• Remove the range bonus. The extra range should be part of the basis range of Longbowmen, so it’s 6 for Longbowmen and 7 for Elite Longbowmen.
• The effect of Yeomen is changed to provide +2 range to Longbowmen and Towers.
• New UU “Billman”, a kind of anti-cavalry infantry, in Castles.

Pursuing a complete end to the competition between Longbows and Archer line.

The longer range suits the Britons better than the Koreans.

Celts

• Lose the additional infantry speed bonus in exchange for Squires; The Military Drums-line upgrades provide +50% effect, and Military Drums might be free.
• Stronghold also make TCs fire faster, not only Castles and Towers.
• Stronghold no longer gives Castles a square healing area but villagers can drop resources at Towers and Castles.
• Maybe the civ could be renamed to “Gaels”:
  • The Woad Raider could be renamed and reskinned to “Kern” who raids with its speed.
  • The Champion could be replaced with “Gallowglass” as a unique upgrade who can be relied upon as a strong defense for holding a position like how they fought in history, e.g. having a mode can allow it to slows down in exchange for the higher armors, or having an ability to build towers.
  • Maybe Furor Celtica can be renamed to “Great Warpipes” since warriors were rallied into battle and were encouraged each other to deeds of valor by blowing warpipes?

Being only 5% faster than other civs’ infantry doesn’t really bring an advantage.
The healing aura still doesn’t seem to be enough to encourage this UT to be used actively, and having 2 range at one building looks ugly. Maybe making them resource dropping points can encourage tower rush.

The renaming to Gaels is for historical accuracy to the Scottish and Irish, although their emphasis on siege weapons seems difficult to get accuracy through simple renaming anyway.

Goths

• Receive Plate Barding Armor, and lose Cavaliers.
• Receive basic Stone Walls, and lose Architecture and even Masonry.
• Receive Redemption, and lose Bombard Cannons.

Fully upgraded Hussars are helpful, but keep using the Knight line in late games still discouraged.

Basic Stone Walls (without fortified) can protect their weak early and mid game to a limited extent at stone cost and Villager work time, without affecting the later game too much.

Redemption also helps their early and mid games than the Bombard Cannons.

As for the identity, there is still Cumans to be the only civ having no Stone Wall, so it’s fine to me personally.

Huns

• Receive the Steppe Lancer line.

Fits their identity and emphasizes their aggressive gameplay more. I’d even be willing to let them lose Stone wall in exchange for it.

Italians

• Rename Silk Road, to maybe “Merchant Republics”, or “Lombard Banking”.
• Merchant Republics also spawn 1 “Merchant” who takes no population and generates gold as if it was a humanoid Relic.
• Merchant Republics now has its effects for the entire team.
• Have “Galleass” a unique upgrade replacing the Galleon or (Elite) Cannon Galleon.

Rename the UT to give it more Italian flavor, and let it more useful, especially in 1v1.
Introduce the Galleass to represent Venetians more.

Japanese

• Lose Husbandry.
• Receive Bombard Cannons.
• Replace Kataparuto with “Bushido”: Samurais receive -3 damage from ranged UUs; and Samurais, Cavalry Archers and Knights have +10% speed and get Heresy effect.
• Rename Yasama, to maybe “Yagura”, in order to avoid being confused with Arrowslits in the Japanese localization.
• Yagura may also give additional arrows to Castles.

The bonus against archers of Cavalry Archers is so good for a civ that were not really unbalanced.
Make the Cavalry Archers more easier to be chased by cavalry, so players can choose between Crossbowmen and Cavalry Archers depending on what they are facing. Giving the cavalry speed back in the Imperial Age also reflects the fact that mounted samurais adapted charge tactics in the sengoku period, last century of the timeline.

Kataparuto is a complete fake that should have been removed long ago.

Koreans

• Lose Hussars in exchange for Blast Furnace and Plate Barding Armor.
• War Wagon rework.
  • Renamed to “Hwacha Wagon”.
  • The armor class changed to cavalry + siege unit.
  • The projectiles changed from 1 bolt to 4 arrows. The main arrow has 3 attack, and the additional arrow has 2 attack, so the total is still 9.
  • The range changed to 6.
  • Affected by Shinkichon too.
• The effect of Eupseong is changed to give defensive buildings +2 attack.

Bringing WWs closer to the historical things they were meant to represent. After WWs are no longer considered archers, slightly buff their Knight line to mitigate the disproportionate weakness of their Stables.

After the Svan Tower becomes a unique building and upgrade replacing the Keep for the Georgians, the Koreans can have that effect which suits their defensive identity very well for Eupseong, while the current extra range goes to be a part of Yeomen.

This is aimed at the current Koreans. Anyway, we should wait for the update that comes with the next DLC before making a decision.

Mongols

• Nomads affects all buildings, so the population space won’t be reduced when a TC or a Castle destroyed.
• Nomads also make Packed TC Wagon trainable at Castles.

Make the Nomads more useful.

Portuguese

• Have access to Missionaries.
• Caravel rework:
  • Fire cannonballs rather than bolts, but still in a straight line and with same prajectile speed.
  • The cannonballs won’t deal damage in the line, but deal blast damage with a radius.
• Replace Organ Guns with something having similar gameplays, like “Swivel Gun”.
  • Seige unit, or infantry + Seige unit.
  • Look like the Cannoneer in AoE3, using a swivel gun instead and firing grapeshots.
• Rename Carrack to something focusing on their explorations and adventures oversea, like “Age of Exploration” for example.
• Age of Exploration also has effects for the land, for example, allows Feitoria to be built in the Castle Age (but generate less at the time) and allows Feitoria to train Swivel Guns and maybe fire bullets for defense.

For fun and for accuracy.
Some people want to remove Organ Guns for accuracy. I know it is difficult.
Renaming the UT allows it to provide effects not only for ships.

Saracens

• Bimaristan also gives Monasteries a square healing area.

The name of this UT is a hospital, so it makes sense. No body research the current Bimaristan until there are a lot of Monks already.

Sicilians

• Donjons can be built but cannot fire in the Dark Age, and Barracks cost -50%; Spearmen is untrainable at Donjons.
• First Crusade is changed to simply make this Castle spawn 20 Serjeants and allow Serjeants to build Donjons in a shorter time than villagers do.
• Petards (and maybe Siege Towers and Rams) can be trained at Donjons.
• A really personal idea that may not be popular:
  • Serjeants replace Militia-line units in Barracks, and “Vavasours” replace Serjeants in Castles.
    The Vavasour is infantry or cavalry, can build Donjons too and inspire nearby Serjeants like how Centurions work.

Make the choice between a Donjon and a Barrack in early game more meaningful instead of always choosing one over the other. The Donjon already provides defense through ranged firepower, so if spears are still needed, build more Barracks (and they are cheaper now).

Make First Crusade as a Castle Age UT worth researching earlier for a rush rather than always being researched in late games.

The siege weapons from Donjons can bring more aggressive gameplay in a rush in closed maps also. Drop a Donjon in front, train Sergeants, and then train 2 Petards, a Siege Tower or a Ram to have soldiers cross the wall to build more Donjons on the inside.

Having Serjeants makes it almost impossible for their Militia-line units to be used. Rather than leaving them there, it could be better to have Serjeants replace them directly and make room for new things.

Of the military ranks in Norman Social Organization and Feudalism, the lowest rank was the Sergens, a professional foot soldier, literally ‘one who serves’. Above the Sergens was the Vavasseur, a soldier who equated to a squire, and who would have probably served a particular knight.

Spanish

• Receive Crossbowmen, and lose Thumb Ring.
• Cannonballs for Cannon Galleons are no longer faster, but free Elite Cannon Galleon upgrade.

Giving Crossbowmen isn’t a popular opinion. I just do really think it’s good, and I’m even willing to exchange the researching bounty for it. It helps a lot in early games while it won’t be too worth investing in a long term as no Thumb Ring and Arbalester upgrade there.
As for the identity, they have the most iconic UU, and there is still Bulgarians to be the only civ having no Crossbowman.

Faster cannonballs only for Cannon Galleons are visually weird, while in practice nobody trains Cannon Galleons on purpose to attack other ships. When people train them, they usually still be used to siege, so the free upgrade is more helpful.

Teutons

• Farms cost -33% instead of -40%.
• Have “Landsknecht” a unique upgrade replacing the Two-Handed Swordsman and Champion.

Replace the least used Champion since the civ have high quality infantry UU that can defeat the fully upgraded generic Champion.

The Landsknecht can have lower armors than the Champion but a charge bar for dealing a blast attack by slashing in a wide area (without additional damage), so that it might be good at against archers and spearmen.

Vikings

• Maybe rename Chieftains to “Heathen Army” for reflecting the looting capability better.
• Have “Shieldman”, or “Ulfhedinn”, “Jofurr”, a unique upgrades replacing the Longsword, and the elite replacing the Two-Handed Sword and Champion.

Again, replace the least used Champion since the civ have high quality infantry UU that can defeat the fully upgraded generic Champion.

The Shieldman is a Nordic warrior holding a round shield and wearing a wolf coat (Ulfhednar) or a boar helmet (Jofurr), having lower attack but higher pierce armor than the Longsword. It should help the civ against archers too.

The Jofurr could be the best of the three names since it is easier to pronounce and the worship of wild boars is more unique than the worship of wolves. The theme of boar could also refer to the Svinfylking formation.

The Japanese could have their Champion be replaced with a new unit due to the same reason, but I don’t think I have a good enough idea. Even though I had suggested “Jisamurai”, or simply named “Odachi/Nagamaki Swordsman” after types of weapon, to replace their Two-Handed Swordsman and Champion, but receiving -50% damage from siege weapons I had suggested for them is considered not attractive enough.

[Skadidesu]

@UpmostRook9474

After the Imperial Age is researched, a “REVOLT!” button is available at the same place in TCs. It has a cost based on the number of villagers, enables Flemish Militia at TCs, turns all villagers into Flemish Militias like what the Revolution currently does, and additionally increases the work efficiency of TCs. This button can be disabled in the room settings.

Should the revolt button be reusable? Would be interesting.

@UpmostRook9474

Chinese

I think they will get bigger rework soon anyway.

@UpmostRook9474

Cuman Mercenaries now makes the free Kipchaks garrisoned in Castles rather than waiting for training.

Getting them immediately when you build a Castle would certainly be more convenient.

@UpmostRook9474

Receive 10 wood for every villager instead of fixed 200 wood whenever a new Age is reached.

You mean on Age up or whenever they train a villager?

@UpmostRook9474

The extra HP bonus for Scout Cavalry and Steppe Lancers is from the Imperial Age.

How about make the HP bonus their Castle Age UT and then make Normads a civ bonus.
This way we get rid of the most useless UT and nerf the early Castle Age power spike.

@UpmostRook9474

Monastery units do not cost -20% gold.

On top of their existing Gold bonus?

@UpmostRook9474

Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade.

I wish Romans had good Skirmishers. It would make a lot of sense historically and would be more interesting then another Knight civ.

[UpmostRook9474]

@Skadidesu

Should the revolt button be reusable? Would be interesting.

I assume it cannot be reusable. If it can, the effect of faster TC efficiency cannot receive again.

@Skadidesu

Getting them immediately when you build a Castle would certainly be more convenient.

That is what I mean. Build a Castle, and the Kipchaks are automatically garrisoned there when built up, so that they can add the arrows of the Castle even if the player forget or hasn’t notice them.
For existing Castles, the Kipchaks would be garrisoned into Castles when the tech is researched. If a Castle is full, they would be spawned outside.

@Skadidesu

You mean on Age up or whenever they train a villager?

As I stated, whenever a new Age is reached.

@Skadidesu

How about make the HP bonus their Castle Age UT and then make Normads a civ bonus.

That is just a Hun bonus but a simply worse one since they still have to build first.
I’d like to give Nomads more special effects, like making Packed TC Wagons trainable at Castles allows they can build more TCs without villagers.

@Skadidesu

On top of their existing Gold bonus?

That means the gold discount do not affect Monastery units.

@Skadidesu

I wish Romans had good Skirmishers. It would make a lot of sense historically and would be more interesting then another Knight civ.

The free Elite Skirmisher upgrade is helpful and historically makes sense. However, that could be broken in late games if the civ has better trash.

[KHANATTILA]

Take it as a refinement

@UpmostRook9474

Armenians

• Have access to Paladins.
• Remove additional projectiles of ships.
• The bonus Relic should not affect the Relic Victory.

• Add ‘Plate Barding Armour’
• Swap ‘Arbalester’ whit ‘Heavy Cavalry Archer’.
• and I would honestly give ‘Fereters’ to another civilisation

@UpmostRook9474

Bohemians

• Remove Siege Engineers, and Elite Hussite Wagons get +1 range in exchange.
  Or, make Bombard Cannons and Houfnices unaffected by Wagenburg Tactics.

Buuu

@UpmostRook9474

Either free gold mining upgrades or free stone mining upgrades, not both.

• Only gold, so we can finally give the Bohemians ‘Hoardings’, although all castles have it graphically.

@UpmostRook9474

Dravidians

• Receive 10 wood for every villager instead of fixed 200 wood whenever a new Age is reached.
• Lose the wood discount for siege weapons.
• Receive Elite Battle Elephant and Husbandry

The discount on siege weapons, aka Mangonel, was given to try to have a chance in the Castle Age because they have no knights and no redemption.

@UpmostRook9474

Mongols

• The extra HP bonus for Scout Cavalry and Steppe Lancers is from the Imperial Age.

• I would swap ‘Nomads’ and the civility bonus on the Scouts/Steppe Lancers. Also because it would be the only civilisation with a bonus on the Steppe Lancers without having to pay, unlike the Cumans, Tartars and if added also the Bulgarians & co.

@UpmostRook9474

Romans

• Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade.

Help them transit into the early Castle age before you haven’t accumulated the number of Scorpions yet.

In that case, one could also slightly increase the cost of the scorpions.

[Skadidesu]

@UpmostRook9474

As I stated, whenever a new Age is reached.

It wasn’t completely obvious from the way your sentence was written, that’s why I asked.
Would directly giving them 10 Wood for each villager trained be an option? That would mean you can convert food into wood in the very late game though, but you can already do that with the market.
But I think the wood scarcity on water maps is not fun anyway and should be fixed in general so that change would not be OP.

@UpmostRook9474

That is just a Hun bonus but a simply worse one since they still have to build first.

Yes. But there are some advantages like you can wall with houses and you can place them as scouts. You can spot enemies walking past them without the risk of losing population.

@UpmostRook9474

I’d like to give Nomads more special effects, like making Packed TC Wagons trainable at Castles allows they can build more TCs without villagers.

tbh movable TCs are a cool feature in general and it should just be a generic tech that is available all Nomadic civs in the game.
By being a generic tech it would prevent TC rush from being an OP Dark Age strategy.

@UpmostRook9474

That means the gold discount do not affect Monastery units.

Oh sorry read that wrong. Missed the “no”.

@UpmostRook9474

The free Elite Skirmisher upgrade is helpful and historically makes sense. However, that could be broken in late games if the civ has better trash.

I would trade that for removing the Knight line or just Cavalier or Bloodlines. But definitely remove the Knight Line from their UT.
Knight is certainly not a trash unit though.

[KHANATTILA]

@UpmostRook9474

Burmese

• Revealing Relics is a civ bonus instead of a team bonus.
• New team bonus, like Knights and Battle Elephants +2 attack against standard buildings.

As shared Line of Sight is the default setting, the whole team can still see the locations of Relics.
Try to bring the old effect of Manipur Cavalry back partially with the new team bonus.

Yes, in addition to what Ornlu says. And I would add that the infantry bonus could then be given to a true infantry civilisation. Because at this point it would be really erroneous and meaningless.