Ottomans Needs Urgent Rework!

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
105

It stands that the unit the devs released lost to what was considered to be the worst age 3 unit in the game - mangudai were known to be strong for the post imp in team games but were seen as horribly weak even at that time for being fairly fragile/expensive in age 3. Than jans came out and lost to them. Even rus horse archers beat them:

Because if jans can use the argument of res cost/ train time against handcannons, then it horse archers and camel archers cost no gold - very big deal in age 3. Also very obviously not mentioned by the pro jan camp.

I’ll restate at this point; I want a redesign to the unit - a ranged anti cav that was released to fail vs the weakest cav of the time? Really? I dont consider the bs method of stealth buffs to attack speed - at this point, jans have enough attack speed to out dps archers vs light inf, true, but that is just du*mb.

The attack speed gradually crept from 1.75 to 1.35 without any indication in any patch notes - that alone proves how badly the design fumbled and how bizzare the commitment to forcing this bad idea is. At some point the jan will be good against things if only because the attack speed might go in free fall till this fail of design is enabled.

Even then, 3.5 range and 1.12 speed isnt gonna let them beat about 5-6 horse archers doing hit and run. Cuz thats exaclty how many it takes to 1 hit jans with horse archers in age 3.

And thats your really solid age 3 unit that costs 100 gold against a trash unit. The Otto trade doest start till age 4 y’know?

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106

Why do you say even the horse archer? The horse archer definitely was a good unit. Shortly after that video was made, janissaries got buffed. Shortly after janissaries came out too, mangudai also got a huge nerf.

Heck you can say the same thing about crossbows. Other than MAA, crossbows perform worse 1v1 vs every unit in the game, so they must be a garbage unit from your argument.

I’m also not saying release janissaries were a good unit, but after the buffs and overall game balance, they are a very viable unit right now, especially in castle age, particularly vs certain civilizations

There’s also the fact that the janissaries will have the mehter unit with them that skews all these matchups

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107

its 1,5 actually and they said that in the parch notes but lots of people missed it

Crossbows kills knights too if you dont know and they are cheaper so easy to mass,that makes them strong against everthing compare to janissary also they have much range

janissarry needs to win against horse archer because it made to counter it and cost too much

Thats made mehter a good unit not janissary they power up other units too

108

True, but the existence of the mehter and Sipahi effects how good a janissary is. While xbows are good vs knights, it’s not nearly to the same extent. You don’t see 20 crossbows and decide welp knights are useless and I can’t use them anymore in the same way you do with janissaries. You need less than half as many janissaries as you do crossbows to win a fight vs knights. Crossbows though are generally a better all-around unit to mass I will agree (while they are cheaper, they aren’t much easier to mass until imp, because you are limited by training time/production buildings).

Crossbows are even more reliant on units in front of them, since they don’t actually beat knights very well if there are no spears in front

109

Man, dont say too much, these folks dont understand or want to understand. They watch every youtube pro videos that no pro use jans and gb too much but they only say Ottomans good, jans and gb are good. :rofl: :rofl:

I want to say another thing that devs cut it of from ottomans: Ottomans mosques have 2 minarets but Abbasid, Mali and Delhi mosques are 4 minarets. Why didnt devs give ottomans 4 minarets mosque? Because they want to dont show Ottomans shine.

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110

Heck you can say the same thing about crossbows. Other than MAA, crossbows perform worse 1v1 vs every unit in the game, so they must be a garbage unit from your argument.

Crossbows can actually beat ranged cav - all of them. They can also kite regular HC’s. And, of course, kill jans. Alot of your argument depends on giving jans a fronline - why dont the crossbows have a frontline? At that point, xbows deal less damage vs knights but still perform alot better vs them than jans do vs maa.

The viability of jans seems to only have dps as an argument. At some point, try to address the real problems:

  • 3.5 range means they’re outranged by all other ranged infantry
  • 1.12 speed means they are among the slowest infantry units

With these two they can be kited even the likes of HC’s and xbows, and especially horse archers. The cherry on top:

  • +50% ranged damage taken

Welp, now every single civ has at least 2 counters vs this unit should anyone ever field it.

The current janissary is something a slow infantry version of a the pre-nerf mangudai thats extra weak to all ranged units. Even that mangudai was vulnerable, it was good because it could control the distance it had between itself and knights/horsemen. You couldnt cant it and couldnt outrun it. Jans cannot do this very critical thing - and are weaker to all ranged damage besides it.

It has dps vs cav you say. It is bad because its very easy to prevent its dps.

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111

Crossbows perform worse against ranged cavalry than jans? I was commenting on xbows needing frontline, because unlike jans, they lose against knights and horseman.

Jannisary has the same movement speed as other handcannons and crossbows.

They don’t function at all in the same vein as mangudai. Janissaries are there to augment your archer/spearman/sipahi mass so that the enemy cavalry dies super fast and your sipahi and archers run amock over the enemies. Mangudai are good at raiding, they don’t actually do anything to stop cavalry or MAA to just run past them or fight other things, since they do like 3 damage.

They take the place of crossbows, but they perform a little worse against MAA but drastically better against everything else. They are a unit you mix into your archer/crossbow mass, not a unit you make an army of.

They are a mediocre unit against the english, chinese and abbasids, sometimes the malians (malians lack good MAA, so keeping them off sofas is useful, matchup can go either way), but hard counter the french and are great against rus and mongols
If they were bad, pros wouldnt use them when they were competing for thousands of dollars.

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Pros dont use jans. They recruit 5-10 of them, usually vizier points . I watch a video that a pro dont recruit archers then other pro recruit too much jans and win the game. This is other pro mistake. Historically, Jans werent used against cavalry. They were used against used maa. I think devs should remove + %50 ranged damaged and cavalry buff and add - %50 maa damage tag.

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113

There is more and more wrong with your responses as they come.

Crossbows perform worse against ranged cavalry than jans?

Ranged cav cant kite xbows because they have lower range and need to take shots to while approaching. Vs jans most can fire on them from out of range. Besides that, the 100 gold cost is a pretty harsh thing.

Jannisary has the same movement speed as other handcannons and crossbows.

Was that you response to them being kited by xbows handcannons? Bruh. Maa, xbows and handcannons all have the same speed - how do the maa get kited? Ah yes, the ranged units fire and move. Jans have range - a very short range. They are very easy to kite.

They don’t function at all in the same vein as mangudai. Janissaries are there to augment your archer/spearman/sipahi mass so that the enemy cavalry dies super fast and your sipahi and archers run amock over the enemies. Mangudai are good at raiding, they don’t actually do anything to stop cavalry or MAA to just run past them or fight other things, since they do like 3 damage.

Here I was comparing them on the bases of how they managed the low range. Mangudai and jans share a very low range of 3.5 and I did that to illustrate how much of a problem it is to have such a low range on a fragile unit that isnt fast enough to compensate for it.

I did a whole breakdown of how the weaknesses combine to make them unsuable - another point of mine you try to steer away from.

hard counter the french and are great against rus and mongols

They hard counter

a) the french who have the highest dps xbow unit which can also augment its pierce armor in age 3. Then later have 25% cheaper handcannons with enlistment incentives. Also royal culverin. Bruh.

b) Rus, the civ with a horse archers and streltsy. Goldless ranged cav and the best handcannon unit in the game.

c) Mongols with yam aura on all thier melee ranged infantry.

If they were bad, pros wouldnt use them when they were competing for thousands of dollars.

If they were good, it would show in the tests. The 5-10 you see seem to be a huge misunderstanding on your part - the viz point ‘janissary company’ gives you a number for the amount of military schools you have. Its a garbage point but they use it to add just a tiny bit more to the army value when going for an age 3 all in. Its not jans being good, its jans being there and pros thinking why not.

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114

The viz point gives 8 yes, but in the current ongoing professional 1v1 tourney, at least half of Ottoman 1v1 games (that make it more than 2 minutes into castle) have janissaries coming out of the archery range in castle age.

While the french do have good xbows, forcing the French into full infantry comp is a huge win. Whether it’s on ladder where France’s 2nd worst matchup is to ottomans, or in tournies, French do not perform well against the ottomans. Sure they have amazing crossbows, but taking away French knights is like half the civ’s power. Outside of other S tier civs, Ottomans are the Rus’ and the Mongols worst civ matchups.

And regarding pros training jannisaries, I am referring to games actually seeing them in the production queue in addtion to the free jannisary company vizier tech.

115

Patch notes are out.

Again they made the Ottoman’s Great Bombard slightly cheaper. Again they kept HP, range and attack the same very ineffective levels.

So still we have something completely useless and very expensive, but now slight cheaper. Still barely kills 1 archer. Still dies instantly to springald. Still useless joke, you just instantly lose tons of resources and lose the game.

In fact Ottomans are even worse now, because Sipahi takes longer to train.

It’s hard to understand why devs do this, it’s been more than a year everyone from pros to mid-levels saying the unit is useless, no one ever uses it in competitive game, they insist on keeping it so.

Why?

Delhi elephants are a similar problem, it’s also key to the fun of playing Delhi (no wonder no one plays Delhi). But I’ve never seen pros use Great Bombard in a thousand 1v1 games, not even once. Unit never used is not in the game = Ottoman civ soul not in game

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116

Landsknecht got a 5 hp buff.

At least you got 100% faster training time in Imperial age.

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Yes but what does it mean in practice?
Nothing.

Ottoman doesn’t survive till Imperial. When game going to Imp, pros playing Ottos simply suicide throw all their army and all their villagers against the enemy.

To highlight: pros SUICIDE their VILLAGERS when they’re playing Ottos and can’t win in Castle Age.

Because they know they can’t compete in Imperial with the useless Janissary and joke Great Bombard.

With all devs are doing, unfortunately AoE is dying for me.

I am seriously considering to boycott the “Galactical Jeanne D’Arc” DLC too.

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118

Ottomans are WORSE overall after patch, because of Sipahi training time, and Janissary and Great Bombard are still 100% ABSOLUTE JOKE, even the best players in the world get massacred playing Ottos:

Great Bombard was an absolute useless joke before the patch, now it’s a slightly cheaper useless joke!

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119

The pop cost of great bombard change is probably more meaningful. Again it was basically a micropatch, we will see a real major patch.

I see you love overexxagerating. Great bombards oneshot springalds, while it takes 7 springald shots to kill a great bombard. The unit is still pretty much a meme, but we did see a couple 1v1 games get to the point of producing them out of the MIA (most notably the 1 hour game in the quarterfinals vs delhi that was mass jan + sipahi with a few bombards from MIA. between LucifroN and loue)
Granted that game was very unusual, but the bombards and jans ended up being clutch (ottomans stuck with only gold so Jan’s costing 60 non-gold resources was super value and shredded elephants/spears/handcannons)

Having access to the cheaper/buffed Ribauldequins might be meaningful since the kind of lack good MAA answers (even though jans do ok with the Mehter)

Ram nerfs does open up space for other siege (and tbh in the Lucifron match, great bombards 2-shotting rams was suprisingly useful)

121

Great Bombard buffs: costs a little less (so a little devastating to lose it), pop cost reduced (so can field a larger army with the great bombard, making it easier to protect and reducing opportunity cost; also makes it less likely to be pop-blocked), attack speed reduced (so effectively deals more damage - and has a smaller window where it can’t fire back after firing a shot to say, snipe a springald). It also can benefit from the Istanbul Imperial Observatory buff (especially if being produced from MIA). Great Bombard emplacement also had a cost reduction, though it’s still more expensive than a normal bombard emplacement. I don’t play Ottomans, so I don’t really know how the Great Bombard will compare to normal bombards now, but the emplacement seems like it will now justify its (smaller) increased cost.

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How much hp do you want it to have? It has drastically more hp than regular bombards. It can fight springalds 3 against 1. Also why are you spending resources on great bombards, you get them for free.

They have more range and double the attack of regular bombards and they oneshot every unit excluding knights and elephants (in an aoe), why are you saying they barely kill 1 archer, it overkills archers by more than double their hp (and in a moderate aoe)

Sure regular bombards barely kill an archer and die quickly to springalds. Is that the unit you are talking about? Or do you just like overexaggerated lies in bold font? Or perhaps you are talking about the emplacements that are put on keeps?

Ottomans being nerfed isn’t that suprising, they are performing well at a high level and are the strongest civ (by winrate) on ladder atm.

125

Devs says that I will make Ottomans so bad that no player want to play with it. Yes devs you did it. I dont play with Ottomans as you intentionally make the Ottomans bad at every aspect. Labelled as Ottomans arent the One we know from history. Ottomans in the game are the one devs want to be bad, Ottomans should be labelled as Devs Ottomans. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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126

This is post-patch. That is, after GB “fix” that didn’t fix HP, aoe effect or range. Fact is, Ottomans look even weaker than before, and of course no one uses Janissary and GB:

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130

They have more range and double the attack of regular bombards and they oneshot every unit excluding knights and elephants (in an aoe), why are you saying they barely kill 1 archer, it overkills archers by more than double their hp (and in a moderate aoe)

The great bombard has a damage reduction effect on its splas damage. Only 15% of the damage in the description actually gets dealt in the splash area. The aoe of the shot is slightly smaller than a sigle mangonel projectile. A full volley from a mangonel does more damage.

You would know this if you actually went and tried the civ before thumping out the ‘totally funtional’ sticker off of in game description.

Or do you just like overexaggerated lies in bold font

Pot and kettle much? Unlike you the other guy is actually right.

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