Paladins for Poles?

Before ranting please consider this: As of now the Poles have a just below average win-rate. They lack both Plate Barding Armor and Paladins in Imperial Age, giving them one of the weakest Heavy Cavalry.

200 (Poles) Cavaliers vs 133 (Teutons) Paladins (Total Resources) | AoE II: Definitive Edition - YouTube

This video shows how Szlachta Privileges doesn’t actually give Poles more cost-effective Knights in Imperial Age.
I suggest giving them Paladins while reducing the tech’s discount to an extent that balances out their Castle Age but in return makes the civ viable late-game.

As they get neither Camels nor Halberdiers to deal with opposing Heavy Cavalry, Polish Cavalry should at least be able to trade with them equally.
Because neither are Obuchs cost-effective enough to counter cavalry UUs like Konniks, Leitis or Elephants, nor does one always have the time, resources and safely placed castles to upgrade and mass them against e.g. Paladins.

Besides all that Poles would be more fun to play in Imperial Age being more than just an anti-trash specialized trash-spamming civ.

I’m looking forward to your constructive criticism!


Polish knight of the first half of XVI century - even reminds me of the Paladin

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Poles aren’t designed to be a strong civ in early imp… so I think the civ is fine as it is.

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Sounds reasonable. If they don’t change anything, maybe they should change the tag from Cavalry civ to Infantry and/or Archer civ. That tends to be how they are played. Szlachta Privileges probably needs a nerf anyway, and it seems reasonable to give Paladin in exchange, but maybe increase the size of the nerf from what it would otherwise be.

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Paladin is more of a late imp thing though, and in exchange for losing strength on Szlachta Privileges I think it could be an option.

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Thanks for stating the obvious. That doesn’t make it right however.

Exactly my thinking. After all balance is the most desirable thing, isn’t it?

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So what is the point of this thread. There are so many Paladin civs already. What would be the point to add +1 that wouldnt even be good at it?

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What’s the point of having an almost overpowered civ in Castle Age that becomes nearly unplayable in Imperial Age due to missing at least one crucial tech for all unit types? Even more so in Team Games.

Giving the Poles Paladins would neither make them less unique nor make a big difference regarding the number of civs with access to Paladins already.

If anything I only see us getting more Paladin civs in the future but in this case it would actually make sense, both from a gameplay-related and a historical point of view.

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I dont see the problem… not every civ needs to be the same strong at every age. Otherwise we might as well play games with full tech tree on. Poles have a strong feudal, and decent castle, so it makes sense that they should taper off at some point in the game. And if you survive to trash war stage of game, your hussars are actually pretty good

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That’s a real stretch and in my opinion the devs made a fantastic job at ensuring this civ’s uniqueness in many aspects that I don’t see an issue here.

Not what I’d like to discuss here but their Hussars missing 2 Pierce Armor actually are the worst of all both at Raiding and chasing Archers - the two tasks they are meant to perform best at.

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True, they die faster to archers. But they also get some bonus damage from TB, have higher base damage than generic hussars, so they’re not hopelessly bad, on top of being able to handle halbs much better than any other hussar, as well as beating every other civs hussars in mass battles. Moreover you’ll run out of gold a bit later than most civs, thanks to the stone also mines gold bonus. So their trash game is not great but it’s not that bad either.

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You don’t want to engage Halberdiers with your Hussar army even if Trample Damage would become relevant in mass, because you’d just be playing into your opponent’s hand, offering him cost-effective fights.
Especially since you have the advantage of playing around them with mobile units. That’s why the Poles’ Hussars are the best at what’s not desired (melee), but the worst at their primary roles (raiding under defensive structures and hunting archers).

But I’m done discussing Hussars because that’s off-topic here.

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Yeah it’s not sustainable, but sometimes players will misjudge how many halbs (or just simply lack the numbers) they need and you can make a break through :slight_smile: its similar reason why archers dont worry me that much. A lot of people wont split their group of archers into 2 to micro down the hussars more efficiently, but will keep in as one blob, so wasting a lot of damage output in overkill shots

I think Knights is a unit that you are meant to transition out of in Imp as the Poles, they are not meant to spam Cavalier long-term to begin with so it’s good Teutons win that fight. The Imp go-to unit for Poles is Winged Hussar, not Cavalier, and it’s not uncommon for a “cavalry civ” to have a non Knight-line go-to unit, either. For example, Saracens have Hussar, Heavy CA, Heavy Camel and Mameluke as late game units. Of these, Heavy Camel could be argued to be their “natural” unit. Indians have Heavy CA and Imperial Camel (natural unit). Poles are still a cavalry civ just their unit is Hussar in Imp.

Your Imp comp is something like Obuch + Trample damage Hussar or maybe Hussar + Arbalest. It is a bit hard to transition from Cavalier but I think it’s fair too because it offsets the power spike you just exited, too.

In Teutons example specifically, I think Obuch + splash damage Hussar is rly brutal vs Teutonic Paladins, probably even resource-wise you come ahead.

Also it just occurred to me that in melee fights, Poles only lack 1 armor. The test you showed probably looks very similar for other civs with good Cavalier like Malians or Bulgarians etc. Most melee cavalry units are bad vs Teutonic Paladins, seems an unfair standard to have.

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What if they just got halbs instead (basically solidifying their role as an infantry civ)? Or alternatively plate barding armor (which would make their Hussars worth the hype, but probably necessitate a cost increase to their knights/Cavaliers)?

Something about 30 gold discount Paladins just feels wrong :laughing:

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I don’t agree with smoothening the power spike of Poles as it will make the game un-interesting.

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what opposing heavy cavalry?

poles just kill them before they can get to 50 paladin. best farming in the game. best market utilization in the game (saracens can’t actually collect extra resources to sell). extra gold from their stone piles. 30 gold knights. and a relevant team bonus

the whole civ design is idiotic because they can just force rear spawn locations and boom 100% safely all the time while the opposing cavalry players run out of gold. nobody has time to set up trade anymore with all the power creep that results from letting people choose what civs spawn in which locations

and those knights/cavaliers are stronger than what most civs get access to. it’s just another example of why the win rate data is useless. it doesn’t actually have any relevance on how the game is played in real situations

worry less about how poles can beat some imaginary post-imperial teuton player and instead figure out what to do about none of the civs being able to keep up with poles except maybe a few of the balance disasters like franks/cumans/burgundians/indians

the vast majority of civs are underpowered. their tech tree has something like champions for a heavy unit, while poles get mobile champions with double HP for only slightly more resources. poles need nerfs, not buffs

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i agree give em Halbs or blate barding armour.
normaly poles should havethe strongest paladins they even beat the tutonic order with em IRL

i think op wants paladin but not so cheap anymroe in imp

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Nerf the attack of winged hussar to 7. Give them last armor for cavs. Adjust the UT.

That way you can adjust Lithuanians at the same time.

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I dont think Paladin for Poles is good. I’d rather get the plate armor upgrade for cav.

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If they need it considering they seem to have a nice 50 % winrate. I’d rather see the devs work on Bohemians which apparently from what I know perform super well on Arena but aren’t that great on other maps