because your argumentation detractions from the balance discussion; according to you the Jean is NOT UNBALANCED PER SAY; it just ppl need to get more skilled at answering her strengths…
So Jeanne is indeed balanced, what else is there to discuss??
I am not saying that Jeanne d’Arc is balanced completely, I am saying that the winrate metric people keep on using is skewed by a lack of familiarity with the faction, and that people are still adapting to the meta.
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Why did they have to nerf the starting triumph points. Thats just a nerf to using horsemen which is really needed against feudal heavy armor units.
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Your statement is quite presumptive? What portion of the win rate is due to the novelty of the civ? How do you measure it?
we can both accept the idea that the win rate metric IS incomplete but when you offer to fill in the blanks with conjecture?? how is that NOT WORSE? than formulating a conclusion exclusively on win rates??? at least the rates can be measured and analyzed? how do we pick at the supposed hidden metric dev have access to that you somehow sense? is driving their balance intentions?
basically your whole arugment has been
I feel… I believe…
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That’s how someone speaks when they are speaking subjectively instead of objectively, speaking objectively here makes no sense since I’m not claiming to be a master of all knowledge.
I also feel like if you want to address me directly it would be better to do so through private messages, this is taking away from the threads discussion.
The fact that you dont see how this talk between me and you is part and parcel with the balance discussion at large, I think is part of the problem;
Me and you are arguing about the Balance of Jeanne and how to quantify her balance? Win rates? Dev secret metrics? Nuisances? Impressions? Hopes? etc etc?
we–you, me, and everyone else—want to DEBATE these concepts of balance using a common rubric; and I dare say " a feeling" shouldn’t trump reasonable statistics?
The win rate does NOT tell the full story; yes; but it does tell us something if Jeanne is winning at one of the highest win rates across the skill board AND EVEN IN THE FINALS TOURNAMENT?! That’s measurable data, we should rationalize it the best we can, no??
can we talk about the english campfire? again no change
they change it with the reason:
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Developer Note : The campfire ability wasn’t getting much use and we wanted to revitalize the civilization with a new ability that helps the core roster shine. Instead of providing raw power, this ability has multiple interesting scouting potentials such as being put in stealth forests or on tall terrain to enhance a scout even further. Note that these campfires are also attackable by the enemy, and only have one health, so they are best used as strategic times.
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its just useless, give us something useful please. I still prefer the healing option.
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Anyone know when new event will start? It only said mid of Dec.
This mean 15 Dec?
I’m not sure if they changed it from early in the game’s lifespan, but I know early on, Microsoft had some weird long testing/verification thing they do for patches which means effectively it takes around 3 weeks for a patch to go live after Relic creates it.
If this is still true then this patch would have basically only been from internal testing/pro feedback and was probably finalized before any or much playerbase stats or feedback came out. (That particular bug I can only remember being spotted on reddit shortly before the patch came out so it was probably missed).
I think this might be the case still considering the unusual Byzantines patch and the small smack on the wrist given to Jeanne.
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Yes, Joan of Arc and Zhu Xi should be nerfed… OotD make the gilded units a little more expensive… The Ayyubids, from what I’ve seen and played, are fine…
Why would we make the gilded units more expensive? Did you mean less expensive? The general consensus is that OOTD needs buffs (although it’s possible the ones they just got could be enough once Jeanne/Zhu Xi are nerfed)
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OOTD needs a decent buff. Currently its entire economic bonus of 25% faster gathering villagers is almost entirely offset because they train 20% slower. Other civs have good eco bonuses but without the drawback. As it stands it is a 5% eco bonus, not 25%. My suggestion is to keep the villagers a little more expensive but lower the train time. Other things are balanced around you supposedly having 25% faster gathering like no prelates buffing vills and aachen landmark only buffing by 10% and not 40% yet the entire eco bonus is non-existent until you reach max villagers.
OOTD meinwork is also bugged and unique techs disappear upon upgrading units and the elzbach palace is also bugged iirc.
I had understood that gilded units were very op, but if you’re right, they made them cheaper then…
Guilded units are rightly priced. They are balanced to equate 2 of a regular unit when fighting and their price is also double.
The issue with OOTD is their villagers production time. I would be ok with reducing from 24 to 22 sec. That would give them a bonus close to the french, because right bow their eco bonus is mostly negated.
The other problem is their landmark in feudal that could get a small buff.
Gilded units are slightly better in most cases than 2 regular units and they cost double. The problem is they are much more vulnerable to counter units (due in part to less overkill, and because it is harder to switch army comps). Also OOTD has arguably the worst eco in the game before imperial.
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Of course, of course, I understand…
I do feel some of the debate about JD is just sort of… academic.
I usually think Beasty’s arguments are good. But the ones made last night seemed kind of weak.
Were say knights and longbows a “problem”. Maybe. Did they get nerfed. Not directly - but effectively yes.
Knights didn’t get nerfed (well, maybe French healing). But Spearmen - their counter - are possibly the most buffed unit in the game since release. More health, more damage, cheaper feudal upgrade, better unit behaviour. Were Longbows or archers nerfed? Not to my knowledge. But Horsemen - their counter - started the game with no ranged armour. They then got one - and today have 2. That’s a massive swing.
There have been various things that were just nerfed. Malian Warrior Scouts with ludicrous self healing for instance. We saw the devs try to make Feudal Trade a decision - only for most players to dislike it and subsequent nerf it so its no longer a thing (outside certain civs like Mongols). Arguably we saw the same arguments - “its not OP, you can counter it if you play like this.” Sure. But people didn’t like it because you are devolving the entire game into this new mechanic.
JD should not have an “I Win” button in the form of being able to hit level 3 in Feudal. Which Beasty and certain others have sort of implied is overpowered (as it represents far too great a free tempo swing, unlike anything else in the game) - but then shy away from that to bash the supposedly uninformed reddit posting masses. Take this ability away and see what happens with win rates. (The other option is to nerf the Level 3 abilities, add more levels so its more of a phased tempo upgrade etc etc).
I also think using tournament results is skewed, because they aren’t all equal. Arguably this is the case with AoE 4 World stats. We can see say “gold” - but not how often that’s a Gold III player stomping a Gold I player - and so on for all the ranks. But given the number of games we can probably assume it averages out. By contrast, you can rank the top AoE 4 players fairly easily into a pyramid - with the better players having ludicrous win rates into the less good players. Beasty is a top player - I’m sure he can beat someone who is say rank 12 in the world with JD, and beat someone who is rank 12 who is playing JD. It doesn’t tell us very much about balance. Should we lock Marinelord and Lucifron in a room for a week (or month) and force them to play game after game after game to give us an idea of “top player civ balance?” Its not practical.
You also have the issue that the professional scene is rather diverged from ladder - or the concept of ladder, compared with the lower ranks. People don’t “main” a civ and play, rain or shine, into all maps and matchups. They tend to identify a much smaller pool of viable civs on certain maps, partly based into favourable matchups. Its like how a few seasons ago when Rus was having a bad moment, it had the highest Conqueror Win Rate. Because people only played it on Hideout where it was busted. You weren’t touching it otherwise.