Patch suggestion by several experienced players

[SugaryGraph1416]

@BdelloidBore5

They chose vastly superior landmark “forever” which is very useful through whole game.

both English landmark useful in the T4?
both HRE landmark useful?

Do u need other examples?
Why did u decide that china the only one missing the ability to change landmarks?

@ImpliedOwl1867

From what I understand, he tried to say ppl overestimated the dynasty bonus

@ImpliedOwl1867 no, he said another statement
if you or he want to discuss “strength” of landmark, u should do it. But initially the statement was about “return” previous bonuse. That feature a missing for all civilisations. And some lanmarks are complitly garbage as ppl hit T3/T4. Just building for view without fucking active bonuses, while china has fucking DYNASTY bonus.

@ImpliedOwl1867

For example, entering song causes 600 resources, u get the bonus of 33% time reduction in training vills, but if I pick 2nd TC instead with 700 resources I immediately get 50% reduction time of training vills with a big TC that can garrison 10 vills plus a drop off all resources

T2 landmark.
Resources are similar(600vs700), production speed of vils are similar as 3 TC. Garrison - u have Barbican.
On top of that china can build just 3 TC (if u thing that 3TC are better)

Your civilisation bonuses are the same IO can supervise aby building, no one steal your civilisation bonuses.
x3 supervising is amazing, supervise the mill + stable for pro scouts.

Finally the discussion started with Dynasty bonuses, but ur complains not about “dynasty” but about landmarks.
For me China one of the top tier civs in T4. (1vs1 rarely played in T4, but if china are played in T4), it’s great. Late dynasties are also great +10%speed or +10%hp, it’s super huge bonuses.

Yes, for 1vs1 china has slow start, but the slow start has nothing with “dynasty” and 100% it has nothing with ability to return into Song Dynasty.

[BdelloidBore5]

@SugaryGraph1416

both English landmark useful in the T4?
both HRE landmark useful?

Do u need other examples?
Why did u decide that china the only one missing the ability to change landmarks?

HRE has one of the best T4 landmarks in game. Even the another one is way better than gate that china has.

Both english landmarks are better than Chinas T4.

No idea what the heck are you talking about missing ability to change landmarks. Never stated anything in that regard.

Why don’t you tell how many landmarks from china are good compared to what other civs got? Clockwork. Thats it.

Keep just hating china cuz you fail to kill them before they reach their imperial.

@SugaryGraph1416

T2 landmark.
Resources are similar(600vs700), production speed of vils are similar as 3 TC. Garrison - u have Barbican.
On top of that china can build just 3 TC (if u thing that 3TC are better)

Dude if you let china get away with 3 TC song thats on you. They have absolutely nothing to stop you from killing them.

Excuse me but are you now saying 1TC + Song = 3TC!!! What the heck is that math???

[SugaryGraph1416]

@BdelloidBore5

HRE has one of the best T4 landmarks in game. Even the another one is way better than gate that china has.

it’s useless landmark if u have enough vils.

@BdelloidBore5

Excuse me but are you now saying 1TC + Song = 3TC!!! What the heck is that math???

+2 TC is 1400 resources. Have no idea how u calculated.
And for reasonable readers:
Song (600res) + TC (700res) better than 2 x TC (1400res)
And if china add Third TC it will be even better.

@BdelloidBore5

Keep just hating china cuz you fail to kill them before they reach their imperial.

I’m playing only FL in the imperial (in tgs), but it’s boring FL + bees + bombards - boring as hell.

[BdelloidBore5]

@SugaryGraph1416

it’s useless landmark if u have enough vils.

Ok with that sentence song dynasty is useless too. In late game there is tons of times where you lose villagers to raiding and other stuff. Especially at higher levels where players can multitask. Song or Swabia do not become useless at late game because you need to replace those villagers or have multiple TC. Swabia is even better because it replaces them insanely fast and cheap.

@SugaryGraph1416

+2 TC is 1400 resources. Have no idea how u calculated.
And for reasonable readers:
Song (600res) + TC (700res) better than 2 x TC (1400res)
And if china add Third TC it will be even better.

I dont calculate with the cost of creating something now. I was asking do you mean 1TC + Song worth of 3TC or are you saying 2TC + Song = worth of 3 TC? 1TC = starting TC.

But you answered it. You mean 2 TC + Song. Sure but once again. If you let china get away with that what do you expect? You think China can just freely go tons of TC’s and outboom you? If so then you’re completely out of your mind. In something like 4v4 this might be possible because how big the maps are but not relevant at all to anything.

You can add 10 TC on any civ you want? Can you get away with it? With low elo games sure, higher elo? Hell no.

[ImpliedOwl1867]

My reply is specifically reply to your opinion in which you strongly said that

@SugaryGraph1416

Imagine other civs which has to choose one landmark forever.
Who cares about other trash civs, which build only one landmark once.

1 selection vs 2 selection. and someone still complaining?

Which I already state that it is not true. I believe most players will go for 1 good option before 2 trash options that have to pay double.

@SugaryGraph1416

And some lanmarks are complitly garbage as ppl hit T3/T4. Just building for view without ■■■■■■■ active bonuses

It is true that most factions dont have an extra bonus from the dynasty, because they already have one like france’s villagers, mongol 15% yam speed boost. Or something to upgrade to improve infrantry speed like HRE’s and Delhi’s.

@SugaryGraph1416

Resources are similar(600vs700), production speed of vils are similar as 3 TC.

Do you realize that to match the speed of 3 Tc, another Tc need to be added, so it is 2TC plus song.

@SugaryGraph1416

On top of that china can build just 3 TC (if u thing that 3TC are better)

I would be an happy HRE player if I see china going two/three TC, hope I face that every game XD. For me the most play I go with China is 1TC and song, as you can spam vills at fair rate, while maintaining the healthy army to control the map. But if I can get zhugu nu w/o having to go to song (like other civs have unique units in age I or II) I wont waste time/ resource building 2nd useless landmarks.

@SugaryGraph1416

Your civilisation bonuses are the same IO can supervise aby building, no one steal your civilisation bonuses.
x3 supervising is amazing, supervise the mill + stable for pro scouts.

Yeah, IO is great so what? If you wanna say it alr OP enough to replace all the bonus other civs got then I dont really think it is that OP, it causes 150 foods, and training time from TC, so it slows down a bit, but eventually paid off. The ability to increase drop of resource is great, but still no match the HRE prelates. Speeding the production is great while other civs can do it as well like Delhi, or if they cant just simply make more barrack, they cost the same as IO, with the exception may be the combo of IO and clockwork tw. Not to mention they have only 4 IO, so they cant boost everything all at once.

@SugaryGraph1416

Finally the discussion started with Dynasty bonuses, but ur complains not about “dynasty” but about landmarks.

My statement was about you saying making 2nd landmarks is a better option than having a good landmark, which I dont agree, I already gave the reason 4 times that noone wants to waste vills time and resources build an unuseful landmarks. So I dont see why it is complaining, when I just stating it. You need to be able to differentiate these two things (stating and complaining) before starting an argument. On top of that this whole thread specifically talk about how weak the chinese’s landmarks are.

[RepeatingEar125]

Make Mongol tower like Zerg in StarCraft that not able to bulild out of the zone. You have to expand slowly instead of build tower on your face like 1min30sec

[RepeatingEar125]

China definitely need huge nerf on it.
Imperial officer needs nerf, Tax cooling time should increase. and reduce oversee efficiency
Fire lancer? just delete it. Cancer of the whole game. Replace it by more Mongol style units since Yuan is ruled by Mongol
clocktower? reduce from 50% to 15% would be reasonable.
University range tech should reduce from 20% to 5%, or just delete it. its way too op
zhu ge nu should nerf like increase its resource
Reduce Chinese MAA speed, they are running like horse. Chinese superman?
Reduce Chinese building speed from 100% to 30%
Rus ,ENG, Abbasid , Delhi need huge buff.

[BdelloidBore5]

Lovely troll. What else? Why don’t we just make it so that china can only create 1 IO per game with 1 HP and if it sees enemy unit any unit he decides to run away and cannot create another IO anymore.

Also I think Barbican gunshot should be changed to slingshot that shoots wet noodles

Imperial palace vision range should be available only to enemy team. Ability is too broken so lets change it so it shows enemy villagers for 1 second and chinas villagers for 10mins on usage.

Gate way is too op because it adds too much health to walls. Lets make it so that once china builds it they cant do stone walls anymore.

Spirit way range is too big lets reduce it to so it can only cover one production building.

Other civs should be able to steal chinas tax moneyz when they destroy their resource buildings.

Hm what else. Oh chinas imp ship is too op lets make it shoot pokemons.

[SugaryGraph1416]

@ImpliedOwl1867

Do you realize that to match the speed of 3 Tc, another Tc need to be added, so it is 2TC plus song.

The Song dynasty gives you about 1.5x TC production. (-35% build time leads to an actual increase of 50% build speed).
Villager production Time = 20
Song Villager production Time = 20(1-0.35) = 13*
For 260 seconds, Song with initial TC +1 extra TC will produce 40 vils. (260/132=40)*
For 260 seconds, 3 TC will produce 39 vils. (260/20*3=39)

If you decide to boom further, every extra TC will give you +1.5TC. If you want you can play only one extra 1 TC wihout Song.
Only 1300 resources to be the same as +2TC as any other civ.

For TGs, it’s huge bonus. For 1vs1 it is not that good, but still useful.

@ImpliedOwl1867

but still no match the HRE prelates

Difference: IO gives gold from nowhere. Prelate only improve collection rates.
For example: pro scouts with china is insanely strong.

1. production time for stable x3.
2. research in the mill x3
3. food from one deer pack = 350*7=2100+420cashback.

T3 landmarks - are the best in the game, at least in TGs. (number of TG players = 96k which is more than 1vs1… if someone do not like TGs, but TGs are part of the game).
Clocktower +IO support China with siege via whole game.

@ImpliedOwl1867

My statement was about you saying making 2nd landmarks is a better option than having a good landmark

Bad for you because it’s game design…for one civ… because civs are assymetric. One do not like it, but one will like it.

@ImpliedOwl1867

My reply is specifically reply to your opinion in which you strongly said that

@SugaryGraph1416

@BdelloidBore5

But then when moving to different dynasty all bonuses from previous dynasty is lost. Cant build buildings again, cant make dynasty units unless spirit way is done.

Game of quotes of quotes, that’s the original answer.
And we started the argument about Landmark bonuses.
Initially, it was not about landmark bonuses.
Initially it was about stupid idea to reselect Dynasties. China already has 2 landmarks, but He wanted to reselect dynasty bonuses.

But yes, china sucks in 1vs1 (especially in the early game) but who are good? Mongols + rus + english?
Is it because of landmarks? Especially T4 landmarks or T3 landmarks…

[BriefSphere2007]

Russia no he is good enough

[BdelloidBore5]

@SugaryGraph1416

The Song dynasty gives you about 1.5x TC production. (-35% build time leads to an actual increase of 50% build speed).

The confusion came where you didn’t including initial TC.
1TC with song creates 4.6 per minute.

If china goes 1TC (again initial TC is the 1 TC) + song = 4.6 per minute. Opponent can match this by getting their own second TC which makes them create 6 villagers per minute

2TC + Song = 9.2 villagers per minute which means opponent could go 3TC which is 9 workers per minute.

Which essentially is completely irrelevant “advantage” 0.2 villagers per minute is not even worth of mentioning especially some civs got crazy civ bonuses. Which can easily compensate this advantage.

If china goes 3 TC + Song which is one the most greediest way to play, they’re dead unless opponent wants to sit in their base and boom.

@SugaryGraph1416

For TGs, it’s huge bonus. For 1vs1 it is not that good, but still useful.

Is the balance around team games or 1v1? Ask that yourself. Yes its harder to punish opponent for being greedy in 4v4 than its in 1v1 due the map size. But its still possible to punish them especially if they go 2TC +Song. And ask yourself if its worth even trying to punish it? Greedy play can be matched with greedy play.

@SugaryGraph1416

Difference: IO gives gold from nowhere. Prelate only improve collection rates.
For example: pro scouts with china is insanely strong.

Gives gold that can be lost any given moment and not possible to utilize at mid or late game when initial resource patches has dried out. So hardly worth of arguing for. Plus training time for IO is 20seconds and costs 150 food so it takes some time till it pays back.

Pro scouts is mandatory for China. China has no food bonuses like other civs or something that helps them at feudal / castle outside of getting pro scouts fast. Also chinas farms are worst in game at that stage. Later stage when stuff is stacked together and upgrades, farms catch up with other civs or surpasses them by very small margin

@SugaryGraph1416

T3 landmarks - are the best in the game, at least in TGs. (number of TG players = 96k which is more than 1vs1… if someone do not like TGs, but TGs are part of the game).

Clockwork is top tier landmark, imperial palace isn’t regardless of which mode is played. Just because it unlocks FL which is noobstomper unit it doesn’t make the landmarks any better.

TG’s can have 96k players it still doesn’t mean that game should be balanced around them if intent is to balance game for 1v1. Also players tend to want to play with friends and 1v1 is almost always less popular for that reason.

I don’t play 1v1 at all still I consider things around 1v1 and not TG’s

In 2v2 its all about early aggression and rushes. China has no tools to deal with that stuff or any form of advantage so its always playing behind and there is 0 chance of going any form of 2nd TC with song unless opponent is literally planning to match booming. In 4v4 where maps are larger and vast majority of players neglect basic things they might outshine other civs that are way stronger in 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3.

[AncientMage4342]

@SugaryGraph1416

Game of quotes of quotes, that’s the original answer.
And we started the argument about Landmark bonuses.
Initially, it was not about landmark bonuses.
Initially it was about stupid idea to reselect Dynasties. China already has 2 landmarks, but He wanted to reselect dynasty bonuses.

The whole argument started with

@Adribird90

It is perfectly understood that the Chinese must have Landmarks a little below average due to the dynasties

Then Bdelloid stated that

@BdelloidBore5

“little bellow average” Is heavy understatement. All of them are trash outside of clockwork tower / spirit way in form its used for FL or grenadiers so very situational.

Then he clarified that China shouldn’t have bad choice of landmarks just becuz they have to build it anyway. And he further explained that Dynasty bonus isnt that broken as chinese have to choose only one, and have to pay for it, while some civs already got it for free, or already be a part of their exclusive landmarks.

@BdelloidBore5

Its super poor excuse to have ■■■■■■ landmarks if we can build 2 from each age and dynasty argument isn’t great either because we need to make a choice between which dynasty bonus we want.

So from my point of view, he initially didnt wish to have an ability to reselect the dynasties, but he meant to use it as an supportive argument to explain that chinese utterly useless landmarks shouldn’t be justified by “oh they can make the 2nd one anyway, and they can also get the dynasty bonuses by doing so. So it make sense why they should have useless landmarks”

@SugaryGraph1416

Bad for you because it’s game design…for one civ… because civs are assymetric. One do not like it, but one will like it.

that’s why we are here, isnt it to discuss a better way to balance the game XD.

@SugaryGraph1416

Difference: IO gives gold from nowhere. Prelate only improve collection rates.
For example: pro scouts with china is insanely strong.

1. production time for stable x3.
2. research in the mill x3
3. food from one deer pack = 350*7=2100+420cashback.

T3 landmarks - are the best in the game, at least in TGs.
Clocktower +IO support China with siege via whole game.

No doubt, I agree with how cool chinese can do these.

@SugaryGraph1416

The Song dynasty gives you about 1.5x TC production. (-35% build time leads to an actual increase of 50% build speed).
Villager production Time = 20
Song Villager production Time = 20(1-0.35) = 13*
For 260 seconds, Song with initial TC +1 extra TC will produce 40 vils. (260/132=40)*
For 260 seconds, 3 TC will produce 39 vils. (260/203=39)*

A TC can garrison and fire back at enemy, so it kinda act like a defensive building, and can be a building for droping off resource, so it can reduce walking time. So three TC can a least allow you to cover more ground or making a dense defensive area than the two TC with almost no difference rate of pumping vills. Hence, I dont think the advantage of being able to produce a single extra vill every 4 minutes 20 seconds is really make a difference.

@SugaryGraph1416

If you decide to boom further, every extra TC will give you +1.5TC. If you want you can play only one extra 1 TC wihout Song.
Only 1300 resources to be the same as +2TC as any other civ.

For TGs, it’s huge bonus. For 1vs1 it is not that good, but still useful.

(number of TG players = 96k which is more than 1vs1… if someone do not like TGs, but TGs are part of the game)

IMO, if all players in team game are competent, then it would boil down to 1v1 and 2v2. If a team can’t finish 3v2 quickly enough and lets an opponent boom, may be they need to reconsider the strategy. But also the problem could be the ridiculous size of the map as well, which reaaally need to reduce its size.