Persians became the biggest cockroach civ ever now! Even when you have all the gold on the map they still destroy you with Hussars and free crossbows. The wood cost of the crossbows is laughable on a map like arena where there is infinite wood.
Its more balanced if gold cost is either replaced by food which you cant increase the food production so its harder to mass like skirms or a lot more wood.
Or just take away hussar from the Persians.
I am tired of playing a civ that just wont die. All they need is a castle and some wood to make an army that nothing can beat with their OP vils. Its so annoying to play them THEY JUST WONT DIE!
Have you tried halbs and skirmishers?
I agree they are even more powerful than the Malay two-handed swordsman in trash fight. Mass crossbowman can always beat mass two-handed swordsman.
Maybe this is to mitigate the lack of two-handed swordsman and champion. But this makes them incredibly powerful. I suggest nerf their wood eco upgrade to see if this helps.
Yeah, the xbows are a better trash unit and the hussars mobility easily takes care of the skirms easily while the xbows destroy the harbs. The thing that sucks is if you attack them early most likely you are on 1 TC and their eco will be much better so you wont have numbers you need to deal with their free xbows and trash.
And you if you try to out boom the persians you cant.
So I dont know how to deal with Persians now
i agree xbows shouldnt be pure wood… and what makes it doubly stupid, is that the overall cost of the xbow is also reduced… 70 res in total down to 60 in total…
but you were also mixing apples with oranges… you said you cant beat their free xbows if you rush them… they wont have free xbows by then… the game still favours rush over boom if you can do it right… its a matter of being able to pull off that rush
persians have minimal early eco bonus, no unit discount, and no unit bonuses, until castle… imo its a similar matter to dealing with britons, you need to rush em before they can capitilise on their strengths
I am wondering if the next unique tech would be trash knight/camel/siege. Thats insanely OP.
What civ were you playing if I may ask?
Besides, kamandaran (200 wood/ 200 gold) cost even less than forced levy (800 food/ 500 gold). This just doesnt make sense. This tech should definitely cost much higher. Maybe a cost of 1500 gold can be a good tradeoff.
I meant they are hard to kill from a rush. I smushed him on arena and ended up killing a ton of vils and all the siege and TC and took control of all his golds but he made a castle to protect the back of his base and by the time I had the siege to take his castle down he was already boomed spamming trash and xbows. I mean it’s too hard to kill him when it’s such a cockroach civ he can boom and make units that can deal with anything without needing gold
yeah arena is a completely different story. imo anyone with trash bonuses is far superior to everyone else on that kind of map anyway… but things like arena and black forest give completely skewed games anyway…
like playing turks and then getting a mega random with no gold…
but yeah that whole xbow thing does suck… hopefully they fix it…
Agree, the unique tech gift to them was a mistake, I’m not sure how they can undo it now. Malay forced levy is an imperial tech, and way more expensive and for a unit that is worse than xbows, it seems like its a too cheap imperial tech given in the castle age when compared to forced levy. Even the Viper agreed at the end of his most recent game as persians on youtube on his channel that the unique tech is too powerful and needs nerfing.
So they dont have a counter?
Well, yeah, they do have skrims, and onagers… The thing is having them for so cheap in castle age is ridiculous. Makes the combo knights-xbows completely affordable for a cuv that have a reaaaally good eco. So, yeah, you have counters, but you gonna lose anyway
Seems like an easy fix, switch Mahouts to Castle and Kamandaran to Imp, and modify their costs accordingly. Also raise the trashbow’s wood cost to 70 (the Malay tech doesn’t provide any resource savings, just transfers gold to food cost - Kamandaran should do the same). Persians would still be very, very strong, but perhaps not OP.
That sounds quite reasonable.
They should lose thumb ring and maybe ring archer armor to compensate for trash crossbows.
For me,was a mistake to give this tech to persians. There’s is no way to balance this in a civ like persians, that gets the most versatile nd conplete cavalry of the game, good siege (w/out siege engineers) gunpowder units, good economy, strong buildings, HCA with parthian tactics, halbs… Yeah, they lack bracer, and the imperial upgrades for milita, but why do you need bracer if you can flood with archers? And why you would use champion, when you have, literally, everything else to play?.
Persians only weakness was archers. Now it’s gone.
If you compare to forced levy, you’ll see that, despite the fact that the later is an imperial age UT, and more expesive (and require a lot of upgrades to be viable), it goes with malays’ theme: malay are a cheap-and-fast low-quality civ. You get earlier through ages, and get cheap elephantos, but really weak ones. Karambit are disposable, but cheap and easy to swarm. Malay lacks a good imperial age unit. They relay on quantity.
Persians, on the other hand have the ultimate tank unit. Just cover it with trashbows and thats it. Of course, you can choose every type of mounted unit to replace the war elephant, but you get the idea. Either you get a really heavy unit to rely on (frank, khmer), either you get cheap and disposable stuff (goths, malay). Having the best of both its just plain broken
I’ll refer of what I said in my previous post about kamandaran an the trash war system (it was a post before the previous nerf, so I made this post with 50 wood archer).
In castle age it’s insane. You get the best castle age unit for no gold. You just save more gold for lategame. When you hit imp you wasted less gold in castle age. And on some map, its usual to see castle (arena for example).
A nerf to 70 wood would be enough I think. If you flood them in castle, you don’t have enough wood for farms , ect… which you need to go to imp. wood is “costly” in castle. I can live with it. In imp it’s another problem. If they had no ring armor archer I could live with it, but there… they only lack bracer (and arba upgrade). It’s still a 8 damage archer with the same resist as any other archer.
I even got a megaRandom map whith literally 20 golds pile on the whole map. We started with a castle. I was playing Persian. Guess what was my strat as a cavalery civ? 11
I think the 5% faster working TC buff, as small as it sounds is what persians actually makes OP. Even on a fast uptime (~20-21) pop, you always end up with over +1 villager before even clicking up to feudal age, and this only continues to grow. Only chinese have a stronger (although less consistent) start.
Not to mention they are also the very best nomad civ because they’re the only civ (along with malians) that can build a dock+house+TC+fishing ship immediately, and their TC and dock also work 5% faster now. Pretty much 100% of the 1v1 nomad games I play (at 1500-1600 level) are persian mirrors
I would nerf them by only giving them +50F at start, and increasing the cost of trashbows to 60W 5G (meaning they’re still super viable and spammable, but in very lategame they should be somewhat limited by having to use market or relics). Malian wood bonus also should not apply to docks (or be shifted to feudal age), so that there are no more civs that make a fishing ship in nomad at the start.
Well honestly it doesn’t even matter if it’s nomad. Persians are the best for any hybrid map now IMO—not just nomad. Like you said their TC and dock speed plus making fishing ships right away gives Persians a huge boost over any civ right away and their bonus just gets better over the course of the game with great options. Spirit of the law was confused in his video why Persians got a +5% town center bonus in dark age and the trashbow tech when they were already a solid civ. We will see Persians every single hybrid map in HC3. Get ready for the mirror matchups.
I also thought of removing their wood bonus and honestly probably the food bonus as well. I agree that if a civ should get the advantage of making a fishing ship right away it shouldn’t be Persians or probably Malians. It should be a bottom tier civilization without strong bonuses like Portuguese Vietnamese, goths, Teutons, berbers (?), or turks. I honestly question whether people would even still pick one of these civilizations on hybrid maps if they did get +50 wood +50 food bonus. It would be interesting to find out. I think this is the only scenario where it makes sense.