If that name is a placeholder or teaser or part of the promotion, I can accept it. But it cannot get into the actual game.
Why are you so offended / angry all the time?
All I explained how it was important for the chinese civilization through different dynasties and some ways it was used. Or is it that you donât want to be proven wrong?
Also have I ever in any of our conversations said anything against name change or that the names should be these? No I havenât. I have not been in support of changing nor not changing the names.
Sure, but so? I got exactly same right as you to be part of conversation if I want to.
Never said such thing
Never said anything this sort. All I have said I understand where its coming from because Jade was part of chinese dynasties so its fitting in that area which is pretty much different as you claim.
Again never said anything this sort. I have said term âvariant civilizationâ doesnt exist. And the implication which you didnât get should be if you want entire concept to be âmoreâ accurate and true to history be changed to something like âcommanders, leadersâ or something that allows individual leaders to be leading that part of civilization which would make much more sense.
Youâre too focused on writing that you donât realize you put this twice.
Im not inventing any theories.
All I did was apply YOUR OWN logic and asked you if the term should be different. IT would make game MORE HISTORICALLY ACCURATE which you wanted all along, but seems like thats not what you actually want.?
Just a question. In any of my post have I attempted to mock your viewpoint in anyway or you? Youâre literally trying to mock me every possible turn and being offended for no reason. Maybe step back and think things.
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Thatâs exactly what you did, forgot?
You first tried to prove âEmpire of Jadeâ is a very historical name (which you donât care about).
Then some time later you came back with your latest research progress of âvariant civ is fictional, so you SHOULD NOT use historical namesâ.
Now youâre again proving âEmpire of Jadeâ is a very historical name (which you donât care about).
Okay letâs pretend it did not happen.
But now you said:
What individual leader leads the âEmpire of Jadeâ?
There is one, very very small, but still possible, possibility, which lies in the fictional universe where you cannot ask for historically accurate names for âvariant civsâ:
You DID NOT prove the name can be considered MORE HISTORICALLY ACCURATE by the information you have just googled out, nor could you rule out all the better potential names.
Because you spent so much time finding 100 different theories to justify something you donât care about.
And youâre trying to teach me, coincidentally a Chinese, on how jade is so important in Chinese history that you can design an entire faction evolving around it, and there is no better name.
Yeah and youâve been twisting things to your own little story. I have not EVER said or tried to proven "Empire of Jade " is âveryâ historical name.
Let me quote one sentence for you.
So I have been very clear from very start its not historically used term.
Holy youâre oblivious one. Nothing to do with empire of jade. The entire concept âvariant civilizationâ is historically inaccurate so if that concept was changed to something like âgenerals, leaders, commandersâ what ever term describes historical figurehead properly or term that could allow use of orders or other historical organizations who would work under that specific civilization, but are not at level of own civilization.
So for example we would have Chinese - Yue Fei or French - Jeanne DâArc
This would present the civilization properly and would bring historical figureheads to game.
I have never ever denied your right to ask or participate the conversation or mocked you.
I have asked you to why are you not bringing it up that entire concept is historically inaccurate and if the goal is to make as accurate as possible or more accurate then you would be happily pointing this out too? And changing âvariant civilizationâ to something thats more accurate would achieve this.(alongside making necessary changes to variant names too)
What???
Just so you know. Im vivid fan of history and been for over 20 years and especially history of Asia. So if I know something its most likely, because I have read or heard of it before.
The difference here is that for me AOE4 is multiplayer game and names do not make the game better or worse. Thats my stance.
At any level or point I have not mocked you or made fun of your standing. I have even encouraged to give the feedback about this.
I am not sure about this one but what about Normans as the variant civ of France? Practically the most important duchy historically. You already have Normans as a campaign only civ so we can replace that one with this too. The Normans also fought in the Crusades, so you have the theme of the campaign as well.
The Jade Emperor or Yudi in Chinese culture, traditional religions[1] and myth is one of the representations of the first god (ĺ¤Şĺ¸ tĂ i dĂŹ).
In Daoist theology he is the assistant of Yuanshi Tianzun, who is one of the Three Pure Ones, the three primordial emanations of the Tao. However, some Taoists in history were skeptical of his benevolence because his buildings and infrastructure in heaven and earth were sometimes seen as interfering with the many natural laws or dao.[2]
He is often identified with Ĺakra in Chinese Buddhist cosmology[3] and identified with Yu the Great in Chinese mythology.[2]
The Jade Emperor is known by many names, including Yu,[2] Heavenly Grandfather (ĺ¤Šĺ Ź, TiÄngĹng), which originally meant âHeavenly Dukeâ, which is used by commoners; the Jade Lord; the Highest Emperor; Great Emperor of Jade (ççä¸ĺ¸, Yu Huang Shangdi or çç大ĺ¸, Yu Huang Dadi).
Thatâs what I mean.
If you put a âEmpire of Jadeâ faction into a historical game, it only has two outcomes:
- The name does not fit its design or the gameplay.
- The name fits its design and gameplay, which means the latter are really bad for a historical game.
I was searching a little and based on the game âJade Empireâ it would be a faction based on the mythology of the Tang and Song dynasties (618-1279) (that is, leaving out what would be the Yuan and Ming dynasty more focused on horsemen archers and gunpowder)
Then itâs really AOM territoryâŚYou can safely base on many other aspects of Tang and Song dynasties other than the mythological part.
Even in those dynasties buddhism was more prominent than Taoism or other traditional folklore.
Donât tell me itâs going to be a Journey to the West civ. Thatâs actually Ming Dynasty fantasy.
Yeah, âJade Empireâ Art director Matt Goldman took inspiration from multiple eras of Chinaâs history when designing various aspects of the world, focusing between the Han and Ming dynasties. The environments were modeled on landscape artwork from the Song dynasty, while the color palette drew from the green-hued art of the Tang dynasty.
There are many stories in Chinese mythology involving the Jade Emperor.[4]
He can also be regarded as a traditional figure among the White Lotus secret society.
The religious background of the White Lotus Sect goes back to the founding of the first White Lotus Society at Mount Lu by Lushan Huiyuan (334â416). During the Northern Song period (960â1126), White Lotus Societies were founded throughout southern China, spreading Pure Land teachings and meditation methods with them.[1] Between 9th and 14th centuries, Chinese Manichaeans increasingly involved themselves with the Pure Land school. Through this close interaction Manichaeism had profound influence on Chinese Maitreyan Buddhist sects within the Pure Land tradition,[2] practicing together so closely alongside the Buddhists that the two traditions became indistinguishable.[3]
All Im stating the fact. Do what you want with that information
Sure why not.
Yes I like history and its interesting subject, but I donât have to care about the names in AOE4 which is video game. Those name do not add anything to gameplay loop or make game more fun to play for me. So why would I be hung up on the names?
This has nothing to do with anything weâre now talking.
Never made such claim. This in your own head. Keep your own irrelevant thoughts to yourself.
I was never looking to gain any form of support for anything from anyone.
All the names have received negative and even positive feedback just because youâre ignorant and refusing to accept other ppls opinions wont make your point any more right or wrong.
On reddit and on forums I have seen ppl tearing apart all the names no matter what so yeah.
When did I defend any of the names? I have explained my view point yet any given point I have not said âwe canât change the namesâ or âkeep current namesâ
I have multiple times encouraged ppl to give them feedback. I have even encouraged you and agreed with you on multiple things
Why do you keep making things up?
RIght, Heâs fictional deity, this is AoE, Not AoM, I mean I too am looking forward to the Monty Python and the Holy Grail Variant of the English Civ and Ali baba and the 40 Thieves variant of the Abbasids too. Is it too much to ask that Microsoft treats our culture with at least a little bit of respect? Surely in 5000 years of history they can find something they donât have to just make up.
Presumably Jeanne is a hero unit for the civ.
So the name will have to make as much sense as posssible with that.
Something with Orleans, or Armagnac, or whatever.
Personally I am not a fan at all of having named hero units in multi-player, but it is what it is. I only ask that they at least make the faction name logical.
Yes, it is a very strange thing, the last thing they call it âwhite lotusâ or âwhite lotus armyââŚ
I would suggest a Chinese variant named Mulanâs Elite Forces or Middle Chinese, 534-619, starts from dynasty Wei, continues to Qi, Zhou, Sui, ends in Sui. Still Chinese but in an earlier age. It could also be 534-907, delete the shorter lived dynasty Qi and add Tang as the end dynasty.
I searched for jade empire and it was han dynasty of china
No there isnât.
Things are not black and white. Just because I do not hold same values as you, it wonât change the fact that I can like history as much as I want and not care about the names in fictional video game that takes inspiration from history.
Quote me single time stating that Mamluks were not a nation like you claim?
Why do you think you got some sort of âgot u momentâ.
I have said this and this has nothing to do with what we have been talking about. We live in world where things like this are controversial and CAN CAUSE negative fuss in media. For same reason companies do not refer German with the WW2 era terms like axis, ###### (<- look even proper term is censored) or even remove some of the historical details from the games, because the potential of negative press. Same thing can be applied to Mamluks why devs may not want to use it.
And thats the entire point I was making which clearly u didnât get
You do see the first sentence in that quote? "its YOUR RIGHT to dislike and like what you want.
Getting hung up on names is silly and thats MY OPINION. I have not defended any view point. What ever you like them or not is up for you to decide and give feedback according your own point of view, BUT fact is that entire concept is fictional and if goal of anyone who wants game to be MORE historically accurate would be pointing out the obvious that âvariant civilizationâ concept doesnât exist those it should be changed to something else that is accurate.
han dynasty doesnt fit in AOE 4 timeline
No. I didnât say you said that. You said:
(1) Mamluks is a controversial name (which it NEVER is)
(2) âVariant civsâ should not use real names.
(3) Mamluks should be their own civ not a âvariant civâ
Can you already see how much you have contradicted yourself in these three simple statements?
Factual errors are black and white.
You making up âmamluk is a controversial nameâ is black and white.
âA vivid lover of historyâ choosing to read the google result for 3min and immediately making up a theory about it is black and white.
You just made it up.
NEVER had people consider Mamluk a controversial name. You the vivid lover of history just made that up.
If you the vivid lover of history would be willing to read a liiiiittle more about it, you will know mamluks as âslavesâ is a very western point of view. It was not like real slavery, but more like hired, âownedâ full-time warrior class like knights. They were highly respected (unlike true slaves). They even seized power and evolved into a whole ruling class.
IT NEVER IS A CONTROVERSIAL NAME. You just made that up in 3min to show âyou cannot name it Mamluksâ.
And MY OPINION is you are making this up just to defend the names.
MY OTHER OPINION is you donât have an opinion at all. You are coming here to argue (against the âhistory loversâ), picking up whatever tool that is handy, making up stuff on history, or the rule of âvariant civâ, or whatever, during the course of it, wherever the direction of the argument goes, just to fend off any counter-argument. You donât have a coherent logic or opinion. Your only argument is âwhat you just criticized is fine and every alternative you suggested is not fineâ.
Thatâs why you keep coming back with different excuses for âwhat you donât care aboutâ and maybe the strongest claim you ever made is âIâm just viewing it differently than youâ (as strong as âyou need to wait wait wait wait for itâ from the other guy of course).
BTW, why should everyone follow your standard and law of âasking for historical accuracyâ? (Oh also I remember you âDIDNâT SEEK SUPPORT FROM ANYONEâ now youâre asking everyone to follow your standard of criticism)
Things are not black and white. Other people can have their own understanding of which part to criticize.
Youâre implying that I was saying mamluks were not real nation in above quote. Which I never did.
Yes it can be considered which was my entire point. Mamluk translates into âwho is ownedâ meaning âslaveâ.
Part of western world believes into narrative where âwhite men were cause for slavery and are badâ and so making playable faction to a game that carries literally slave name CAN CAUSE CONTROVERSIAL.
There is plenty of controversial things happened in gaming industry for example hogwarts legacy (google it up if u dont know) and all of that started from nothing and same applies to this too so its completely understandable if devs wouldnât pick Mamluks as playable civilization and chose different one.
Not what I said.
Variant civilization is not a term that is historically accurate. So yes if goal is to present game âmore historically accurateâ then yes. Mamluks if they were made should be presented as their own civilization.
There is not single contradiction that I have made.
Show one quote from me where I said âyou cannot useâ. I never said. All I made statement that the name is controversial which it is and because of that they MIGHT not want to pick Mamluks.
Never did and never will, because what ever you like names or not is topic that has no right or wrong answer. Youâre free to hate or like them as u want which I have said multiple times.
Also Im not coming up âexcusesâ. Im just pointing out fact that âvariant civilizationâ term itself is complete fiction and if the goal is to create more historically accurate game shouldnât this thing be underfire?
It would make lot more sense to create concept that actually fits its intended game functions which is to create âmore unique ways to play same civsâ and if the ppl want more historical accuracy then they shouldnât the concern be around entire concept and not just the 4 names.