POLL: Should the Variant Civilization Names Change?

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
748

But not the one you just made up in this thread.
Before @BdelloidBore5 the great don’t-carer, MAMLUKS IS NEVER A CONTROVERSIAL NAME.
Maybe you can now start a political movement to make it controversial.

Okay okay you didn’t say it.
You said asking for real historical names for variant civs is silly.

Definitely the direct opposite meaning.

Did you hold that opinion AFTER you first see the concept and BEFORE you join the argument? Or you made it up during the course of it?

Did you think Mamluks is a controversial name BEFORE you join the argument? Or you made it up during the course of it?
Did you already have the concept of a Chinese civ called Empire of Jade because jade is considered valuable BEFORE you join the argument? Or you made it up during the course of it?

You are just here for the sake of argument, so you cannot make yourself coherent. First you don’t care. Then you cannot use real names for variant civs. The jade is sooooo important in Chinese culture. Then mamluks is its own civ. Then mamluks is a controversial name.

I come here with a very strong opinion of “these civ names cannot work in the game, especially Empire of Jade”. I’m happy to be proven wrong if one could give me a scenario where it works, but nobody could.

You don’t. You just want to fend off any criticism and alternative. You just happen to speculate why it might be a good idea to use that name, and why the alternatives people have suggested might be bad, NEVER THE OTHER WAY ROUND. But I consider it a pure coincidence.

If those who “like them” cannot come up with any single reason beyond “don’t care” and “wait for more information”, I’d question if that position is genuine.

Why should ppl follow what you think they should do?

The concept is NOT new. Basically every civ in AOE2 is a “variant civ”. Any major god under AOM civ groups is a “variant civ”. A different deck for an AOE3 civ is also a “variant civ”. It’s just not called that way.
And yeah none of them were given “ficitonal names”, following the great theoretical breakthrough of you (two days ago).

Also, if you consider “variant civ” a different concept from “civ” and should not follow the same rule, then it should not be listed along the base civs either.

For example, an acceptable treatment would be:
Chinese
Chinese (Empire of Jade)

OR
Chinese → dropdown → base/Empire of Jade

NOT
Chinese
Empire of Jade

(That is still a pretty lame name, just to mention)

If you really read other people’s positions instead of jumping in to argue, you’ll see that this is a very accepted treatment. Still not everyone will be pleased though. Some people want the variant civs to have a different focus. Some people want fully historical names. Some people are against the concept at all. But the basic consensus among the critics is the current names should not be listed along the other civs.

749

Again so much of your own made up things that at this point no point even trying to make sense of it. So im only quoting that are someway relevant to topic variant civilizations or their names.

Did I tell anyone to follow what I think? No.

I explained why the concept is not historically accurate. If you want to agree or disagree with this statement you’re free to do so and also you’re free to tell me how you disagree or agree.

Variant civilization is made up term by developers for the purpose of the game. It doesn’t present any historical value or accuracy.

So this same applies to AOE2 where “variant civilization” is inaccurate and entire point of this fuss over the names is to make game more historically accurate those the term “variant civilization” should be changed to present more accurate presentation of history.

So if you want more history presented more accurately then entire concept should be changed.

I agree on this, because its more logical. Representing them as standalone like

Chinese
Empire of jade (name can be whatever)

Gives different impression that Empire of Jade is some standalone thing.

I have read and thought the standing and I have time after time acknowledged your view point and others.

I have even pointed out easily how entire concept isn’t what the fans of history would want which is more accurate presentation of history.

Entire systems idea is to offer different way to play existing civilizations. So if devs chose term that presents that idea from history it would create more accurate presentation of history and name like Jeanne d’Arc wouldn’t be so much out of place.

And even if they picked something like Mamluks which was their own civilization it would just make them “less” of civilization when they’re just called “variant” and not actual civilization.

750

Throwing my 2 cents into this thread to advocate for “House of Valois” to be the name of the French variant.

“Duchy of Orleans” I’m personally not a huge fan of. It sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of its minor-ness and doesn’t really reflect the fact that Jeanne fought for France as a whole, not just one duchy.

House of Valois on the other hand reflects France’s ruling house of the time and therefore that period of French history as a whole. What makes it especially good is that the House of Valois’ accession to the French throne was essentially the reason why the Hundred Years War even started, so it would be tied directly to France as a belligerent in the HYW, which fits really well with having Jeanne D’Arc as the hero. It also fits well with Ayyubid Dynasty and House of Luxembourg as other variant choices, themselves being ruling houses/dynasties.

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751

If they are wanting to do “House of Luxembourg” for the HRE variant, I would be perfectly fine with “House of Valois” as well. It would set a little bit of a precedent for doing civs that are large land owning families, and isn’t too terribly dissimilar to making civs named after dynasties like make were (Bahri Mamluk Sultanate, Ayyubid Sultanate, etc)

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752

I don’t doubt any second they haven’t listened to the community, but the community need first to listen to their explanation of how these came to be and their reasoning behind it.

Only then we the community can provide them with feedback, after knowing the full context. But yes these names are terrible, but again without context maybe will change once we know more?

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753

Solo para que se sepa, Age of Noob sacó otro video ayer (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FnLvyysSCw4&pp=ygULQWdlIG9mIG5vb2I%3D) confirmando que el contenido de las nueva variants civs no es mágico o mitológico, por lo que el miedo de que Imperio de Jade sea como su variante de Age of Mithology, quedó atrás. Eso era lo único que me preocupaba.

Por otro lado, no tengo nada contra los nombres. Otra cosa es agregarle algo como “Ejercito de Juana”, “Ejercito de Orleans” son variaciones mínimas que creo que podrían tratarse a futuro ya conociendo el contenido total de la expansión, pero por el momento, no tengo nada que criticar.

755

I’d prefer variant civilization of china to be called Empire of Silk than Empire of Jade.

757

Well they changed two of the names, they kept one of the worst ones though. And the new Chinese one sounds very odd, but no idea what the faction is like.

Just so odd. Like why NOT use a consistent naming convention? None of their justifications in the post are good reasons not to. It is really not that difficult.

I get that it works around Jeanne being a hero unit, but that is not a reason to make the name of the whole faction literally just her name. Even “Army of Jeanne d’Arc” is way better.

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758

The names for the Variant Civilizations are:

  • Jeanne d’Arc (variant of the French)
  • The Order of the Dragon (variant of the Holy Roman Empire)
  • Zhu Xi’s Legacy (variant of the Chinese)
  • Ayyubids (variant of the Abbasid Dynasty)
    Naming things is difficult. We need to balance historicity with trying to represent what is unique about a civilization. We talk a lot about names. We try out options. We consult with experts. We test and reflect. But sometimes we miss things or get things wrong. Some members of our community raised concerns that a few of our names were needlessly vague and needlessly exoticizing. World’s Edge and Relic take such concerns very seriously, and after much discussion and consultation with experts, we have decided to make some changes. We won’t always get things right, but we are listening and always learning and we appreciate your sharing your thoughts with us. Your voices are a part of our development process and we’ll continue to hear them.

Still dont understand why a persons name is a faction.

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759

Not as difficult as they are making it out to be.

They seem to insist upon having Jeanne’s name in the “civ” name.

Even within those constraints:

  • Army of Jeanne d’Arc
  • Jeanne d’Arc’s Army
  • Followers of Jeanne d’Arc
  • House of Jeanne d’Arc
    etc…
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760

Seems the “experts” find it very difficult.

761

Reading through this I’m already bracing for negative feedback, but this lines up with my earlier suspicions. The faction revolves around an individual hero unit, and the age ups are focused on her specifically and not the overall french people. It makes very little sense then for the name to change to an organization, it makes perfect sense as an individual designation.

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762

Interesting, it seems like a new way to play!!! very good!!!

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763

Right? I’m excited to see the age of empires series evolve now!!

764

Age of Empires 4 follows its own path, and that’s a good thing!!

765

They named a variation civi to sultans army so why not jeanne’s army?

766

It’s changed atm, they renamed Ayyubids.
Devs listening community is fine and i love it.

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767

Unfortunately that discussion needs to wait until details are released about the sultan’s army faction. We have no way to know if they relate.

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768

More game options and a new way to play with this variant and hero, showwww

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769

Oh yeah! I just saw that too! So they are renaming the sultan’s army to Ayyubids!

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