I have been reading this topic and the other topic in which new civ ideas were discussed:
I see that the Dutch have the most votes. Even though I don’t think it is realistic that new civilizations will be added to this game, let me, just for fun, discuss my thoughts on how a Dutch civilization in AoE II DE should look like, both from a historical and a balance perspective.
But first, let me respond to some common suggestions and arguments that I have seen people using in this thread and the other one.
Many people who would like to see a Dutch civilization added to the game are suggesting units and techs that are outside of the timeframe of Age of Empires II and some seem to be copy/pasted from Age of Empires III. This includes the following examples:
- @StereoQuasar163 (who I think otherwise did an amazing job in New Civ ideas) and others suggest the ‘Ruyter’ as a heavy cavalry UU for the Dutch. This is precisely the name from a Dutch UU from AoE III. The name is not creative (it is just old Dutch for ‘(horse) rider’) and doesn’t make sense from a historical perspective, as medieval Dutch armies were not known for their use of heavy cavalry.
- Another proposed UU for the Dutch is the Fluyt, which comes straight from AoE III too and historically, was used starting in the 17th century. Contrast this with the Caravel, which saw its first use in the 15th century.
- StereoQuasar163 suggested ‘Tulip Mania’ as an UT for the Dutch, which is a reference to a historical event from the 17th century.
Others have correctly pointed out some of these things as well, but then concluded that a Dutch civ should never be added to AoE II since the Netherlands as a nation only became relevant after the Middle Ages. I disagree with these people, too. It is possible to add a Dutch civilization within the correct timeframe, but it should be an umbrella civilization covering everyone who lived in what is now the Dutch speaking part of Europe (the Netherlands and Flanders, the northern half of Belgium).
@Antelope962027 has previously suggested a Frisian civilization in this post:
My idea of an umbrella Dutch civ would cover the Frisians too.
Medieval Holland/Flanders/Frisia/etc. certainly saw interesting use of unique weaponry and technologies that can lead to inspiration for a new civilization. I will name a few here.
- The Goedendag (Goedendag - Wikipedia) was a unique weapon used by the Flemish in the Middle Ages. Its purpose was to counter enemy cavalry. This could be the base for a Dutch UU.
- Gibbing (Gibbing - Wikipedia) was a fish preservation technology developed in Zealand, which lies in modern day Netherlands. (Fun fact: This is the Zealand that New Zealand is named after.) It has played a big role in late medieval Dutch fishing economy and could be used as an UT for the Dutch.
- The widespread use of Demolition Ships in AoE II is not historically accurate, but ships like these (called ‘Hellburners’) have actually been used by the Dutch near the end of the AoE II timeframe (Hellburners - Wikipedia). If we were having Demolition Ships in the game but also aiming for historical accuracy, they should be a Unique Unit for the Dutch. We don’t need to do that of course, but the Dutch certainly could have a bonus to their Demolition Ships. (Self-destructing ships that did not explode have been used more commonly (apparently they are called Fire Ships (Fire ship - Wikipedia), and by the Dutch too.)
Some other points of inspiration include:
- Currently, almost half of the country The Netherlands is below sea level. Historically, the Dutch have expanded land and built in places that would seem inaccessible (Land reclamation in the Netherlands - Wikipedia).
- The Netherlands contains lots of rivers and ponds that used to freeze during some winters. As a result, during the Middle Ages, ice skating technology became more advanced in the Netherlands (Ice skating - Wikipedia).
These considerations brought me to come up with the following sketch for a Dutch civilization. It is incomplete, but this should give you an idea of where I’d like to go with them.
Civ bonuses
- Mills cost -75 wood and are built 2x faster
- Market upgrades are free
- Barracks units cost -20 percent food
- Docks can be built anywhere on water (except deep water), shallows and mangrove terrain; Fishing Ships can build Docks
- Demolition raft line has an increased blast radius
- Units move 10 percent faster on ice
Team bonus
- ?
Unique Unit
- Goedendag Milita (fast-trained infantry with large attack bonus vs cavalry)
Example stats
Training time: 6 seconds
Cost: 40 Food, 30 Gold
Hit points: 60,80 (Elite)
Attack: 6,7 (Elite)
Attack bonuses: +22,+32 vs War Elephant, +22,+32 vs Cavalry, +18,+26 vs Camel, +16,+17 vs Ship, +16,+17 vs Fishing Ship, +11 vs Mameluke, +2,3 vs Eagle Warrior, +4,6 vs Standard building (Elite)
Rate of Fire: 2.0
Melee armor: 1,2 (Elite)
Pierce armor: 1,2 (Elite)
Armor classes: Infantry, Unique Unit
Speed: 0.95
Line of Sight: 4
Upgrade to elite: 950 Food, 850 Gold
Unique Technologies
- Gibbing (300 Food, 200 Wood): Fishing Ships work 25 percent faster and carry +5 food; Trade Cogs generate food for your allies
- ?
Technology Tree
The Dutch should have all Dock technologies available. I am thinking they should have FU Champions and Arbalesters too, but not FU Paladin, and apart from Bombard Cannons, they should not have strong siege options.
Now I will discuss these bonuses in more detail.
- The two eco bonuses: The bonus to have all market techs free is weaker than it may appear at first glance. The only relevant Market technology in 1v1 is Guilds, which you can only research in the Imperial Age. In teamgames, more technologies are relevant, but still this bonus will still only become relevant in the late Imperial Age. Despite the market bonus being rather weak, it is still nice to have and it gives the civ some identity. It especially makes it more economically viable to send your teammates resources, which is a reference to the Dutch not having had an own nation in the Middle Ages, and instead having been part of, and under the influence of, other empires. The main historical reason for the bonus though, is that trade has always been important for the Dutch due to their geographical position. To make the Dutch viable in 1v1 land maps like Arabia, they need an additional, stronger eco bonus. This is where the bonus of the super cheap Mills comes in. It is not as strong as e.g. the Japanese bonus of cheaper Mills, Lumber Camps and Mining Camps, but it will still make sure the Dutch save some resources in the early game. It is also a wink to the fact that many people associate the Netherlands with mills. The Dutch could possibly rival the Mongols on a map like Steppe, where there is a lot of central hunt and extra Mills in the center helps your eco.
- The Dutch on water and hybrid maps: For a civilization that has two bonuses and one UT specifically for water play, the Dutch are not as strong on water maps as you might think. The reason is that their strongest eco bonus - the cheaper Mills - does not come into play early on in water maps, due to the fact that on water maps, players want to build a Dock and create Fishing Ships before building a Mill. This means the Dutch benefit from no single bonus before they arrive to the Feudal Age if they play on a water map. This leaves room for buffing the Dutch water play from Feudal Age onward without making them OP. The bonus to Demolition Ships should work similar to Torsion Engines, in the sense that units that would be near the edge of the explosion of a regular Demolition Ship would take more damage if the Demolition Ship was Dutch, since in that case the edge would be further away. The Dutch economic advantage on water comes from the Gibbing technology, which makes Dutch fishing ships slightly more efficient than Japanese ones. However, unlike Japanese, the Dutch first have to build a Castle and research a technology. How good of an UT Gibbing is probably depends on the strength of the Dutch UU. If, on in an hybrid map like Four Lakes, it is viable for the Dutch to go for their UU early, then it is a small step to research Gibbing after they have already invested in a Castle anyway. In addition to giving a boost to their fishing eco, the Gibbing technology gives the allies you trade with using Trade Cogs a little bit of food per amount of gold that you receive. I thought this would be a fun bonus to add, and historically, the Dutch have indeed exported food over naval trade routes, made possible by the conservation technique of gibbing. I think the Dock building bonus is interesting and gives some options for unique strategies, like building forward Docks to harass the opponent. The Dutch cannot build in deep water because otherwise it would be too easy to hide Docks from land units.
- The Barracks discount: I think the Dutch need some bonus for land military and buffing their infantry seems to make the most sense to me. However, this is a bonus I do not have a very strong opinion on.
- The ice bonus: This would probably be the weakest civ bonus in the game because few maps have ice. However, I do like the bonus both from a thematic point of view and because of the fact that it gives some extra reason to pick Dutch on a map like Ghost Lake, where there is little other reason to do so. I don’t know how easily the bonus could be implemented, though; I know of no other examples of units changing speed depending on the terrain.