Wow! This is incredible. If this work is real, then it seems very reasonable to add a North American native civ or two into AoE2.
Thanks for sharing this @Szaladon. 
1 Like
WellâŠthe Mongols, Cumans, and Huns did take over the buildings of their conquered foes, or incorporated the building techniques of more âsophisticatedâ peoples. True, the Mongols did not have much besides felt tentsâŠuntil Genghis Khan that is. He work in creating the Mongol Empire enabled the Mongols to absorb much of Chinese and Persian building techniques. It was Genghisâs son Ogatai who actually laid the foundations of the Mongolian capital city of Ulaanbaatar, and that was within Genghisâs own lifetimeâŠbasically the Mongols quickly became master wood and stone builders in their own right.
The Cumans along with the Tartars certainly also copied the building techniques of the Islamic world.
The Huns thoughâŠI am not so sure. But I guess that they took over a lot of Gothic buildings and Roman buildings and probably rebuilt some of it (probably reason why the Goths and Huns both share the same Central European build set in the game).
But as for the Native Americans of North America they of course build some stone structures. I myself visited the ruins of some Anasazi peoples of the Colorado Plateau not too long ago on a family vacation. They were neat structures to beholdâŠbut compared to the Meso-Americans structures like you see in Chichen Itza and Manchu Pichu and (once was) Tenochitlan, the North American peoples had pretty small and primitive buildings. The structures that I saw of the Anasazi were cool to seeâŠbut they were quite small. Not much larger than your average modern-day house.
That is why it is harder to justify adding North Americans into AoE2 in the first place as they were not as expert stone-workers as their Meso-American cousins, and did not build as hugely.
âŠbut I do get your point, in that there is some merit in adding North American civs into AoE2. The Mississippian cities do prove that there were some large impressive structures built by the North Americans, though they were largely turf structures and not free-standing stone structures.
You should read the history of the Tartar Wonder: The Ulugh Beg Observatory. It was actually constructed by the Timurids (Tartar-Mongoloid peoples) themselves. This building alone should prove to you that the Nomadic peoples had some cultural ability and achievement.
But they were for their military achievments. Thereâs no need to go into details about mongols.
If we consider cumans as not only cumans themselvs but all non-islamic turquic peoples (khazars, cumans, kipchaks, kimeks) I would say that their raids in europe and persia, their presence as mercenaries and the empires they built are totally worth being in the game.
That being said, I donât like huns being in the game. Their presence was only relevant during attilaâs reign, before middle ages even begin. If not for the central europe architecture I would buy they also represent white huns. In my head cannon huns also represent Avars.
Dude, what the f**k? I sincerely donât understand what you are critizicing. I totally support nomadic civilizations being in the game, and this is my argument:
The reason I dislike huns is just because they were present before the middle ages even began, and were just a shadow of the empire of Attila after 476. It has nothing to do with cultural achievments or anything like that.
1 Like
Oh my bad. Sorry friend.
2 Likes
I have been reading this topic and the other topic in which new civ ideas were discussed:
I see that the Dutch have the most votes. Even though I donât think it is realistic that new civilizations will be added to this game, let me, just for fun, discuss my thoughts on how a Dutch civilization in AoE II DE should look like, both from a historical and a balance perspective.
But first, let me respond to some common suggestions and arguments that I have seen people using in this thread and the other one.
Many people who would like to see a Dutch civilization added to the game are suggesting units and techs that are outside of the timeframe of Age of Empires II and some seem to be copy/pasted from Age of Empires III. This includes the following examples:
- @StereoQuasar163 (who I think otherwise did an amazing job in New Civ ideas) and others suggest the âRuyterâ as a heavy cavalry UU for the Dutch. This is precisely the name from a Dutch UU from AoE III. The name is not creative (it is just old Dutch for â(horse) riderâ) and doesnât make sense from a historical perspective, as medieval Dutch armies were not known for their use of heavy cavalry.
- Another proposed UU for the Dutch is the Fluyt, which comes straight from AoE III too and historically, was used starting in the 17th century. Contrast this with the Caravel, which saw its first use in the 15th century.
- StereoQuasar163 suggested âTulip Maniaâ as an UT for the Dutch, which is a reference to a historical event from the 17th century.
Others have correctly pointed out some of these things as well, but then concluded that a Dutch civ should never be added to AoE II since the Netherlands as a nation only became relevant after the Middle Ages. I disagree with these people, too. It is possible to add a Dutch civilization within the correct timeframe, but it should be an umbrella civilization covering everyone who lived in what is now the Dutch speaking part of Europe (the Netherlands and Flanders, the northern half of Belgium).
@Antelope962027 has previously suggested a Frisian civilization in this post:
My idea of an umbrella Dutch civ would cover the Frisians too.
Medieval Holland/Flanders/Frisia/etc. certainly saw interesting use of unique weaponry and technologies that can lead to inspiration for a new civilization. I will name a few here.
- The Goedendag (Goedendag - Wikipedia) was a unique weapon used by the Flemish in the Middle Ages. Its purpose was to counter enemy cavalry. This could be the base for a Dutch UU.
- Gibbing (Gibbing - Wikipedia) was a fish preservation technology developed in Zealand, which lies in modern day Netherlands. (Fun fact: This is the Zealand that New Zealand is named after.) It has played a big role in late medieval Dutch fishing economy and could be used as an UT for the Dutch.
- The widespread use of Demolition Ships in AoE II is not historically accurate, but ships like these (called âHellburnersâ) have actually been used by the Dutch near the end of the AoE II timeframe (Hellburners - Wikipedia). If we were having Demolition Ships in the game but also aiming for historical accuracy, they should be a Unique Unit for the Dutch. We donât need to do that of course, but the Dutch certainly could have a bonus to their Demolition Ships. (Self-destructing ships that did not explode have been used more commonly (apparently they are called Fire Ships (Fire ship - Wikipedia), and by the Dutch too.)
Some other points of inspiration include:
- Currently, almost half of the country The Netherlands is below sea level. Historically, the Dutch have expanded land and built in places that would seem inaccessible (Land reclamation in the Netherlands - Wikipedia).
- The Netherlands contains lots of rivers and ponds that used to freeze during some winters. As a result, during the Middle Ages, ice skating technology became more advanced in the Netherlands (Ice skating - Wikipedia).
These considerations brought me to come up with the following sketch for a Dutch civilization. It is incomplete, but this should give you an idea of where Iâd like to go with them.
Civ bonuses
- Mills cost -75 wood and are built 2x faster
- Market upgrades are free
- Barracks units cost -20 percent food
- Docks can be built anywhere on water (except deep water), shallows and mangrove terrain; Fishing Ships can build Docks
- Demolition raft line has an increased blast radius
- Units move 10 percent faster on ice
Team bonus
- ?
Unique Unit
- Goedendag Milita (fast-trained infantry with large attack bonus vs cavalry)
Example stats
Training time: 6 seconds
Cost: 40 Food, 30 Gold
Hit points: 60,80 (Elite)
Attack: 6,7 (Elite)
Attack bonuses: +22,+32 vs War Elephant, +22,+32 vs Cavalry, +18,+26 vs Camel, +16,+17 vs Ship, +16,+17 vs Fishing Ship, +11 vs Mameluke, +2,3 vs Eagle Warrior, +4,6 vs Standard building (Elite)
Rate of Fire: 2.0
Melee armor: 1,2 (Elite)
Pierce armor: 1,2 (Elite)
Armor classes: Infantry, Unique Unit
Speed: 0.95
Line of Sight: 4
Upgrade to elite: 950 Food, 850 Gold
Unique Technologies
- Gibbing (300 Food, 200 Wood): Fishing Ships work 25 percent faster and carry +5 food; Trade Cogs generate food for your allies
- ?
Technology Tree
The Dutch should have all Dock technologies available. I am thinking they should have FU Champions and Arbalesters too, but not FU Paladin, and apart from Bombard Cannons, they should not have strong siege options.
Now I will discuss these bonuses in more detail.
- The two eco bonuses: The bonus to have all market techs free is weaker than it may appear at first glance. The only relevant Market technology in 1v1 is Guilds, which you can only research in the Imperial Age. In teamgames, more technologies are relevant, but still this bonus will still only become relevant in the late Imperial Age. Despite the market bonus being rather weak, it is still nice to have and it gives the civ some identity. It especially makes it more economically viable to send your teammates resources, which is a reference to the Dutch not having had an own nation in the Middle Ages, and instead having been part of, and under the influence of, other empires. The main historical reason for the bonus though, is that trade has always been important for the Dutch due to their geographical position. To make the Dutch viable in 1v1 land maps like Arabia, they need an additional, stronger eco bonus. This is where the bonus of the super cheap Mills comes in. It is not as strong as e.g. the Japanese bonus of cheaper Mills, Lumber Camps and Mining Camps, but it will still make sure the Dutch save some resources in the early game. It is also a wink to the fact that many people associate the Netherlands with mills. The Dutch could possibly rival the Mongols on a map like Steppe, where there is a lot of central hunt and extra Mills in the center helps your eco.
- The Dutch on water and hybrid maps: For a civilization that has two bonuses and one UT specifically for water play, the Dutch are not as strong on water maps as you might think. The reason is that their strongest eco bonus - the cheaper Mills - does not come into play early on in water maps, due to the fact that on water maps, players want to build a Dock and create Fishing Ships before building a Mill. This means the Dutch benefit from no single bonus before they arrive to the Feudal Age if they play on a water map. This leaves room for buffing the Dutch water play from Feudal Age onward without making them OP. The bonus to Demolition Ships should work similar to Torsion Engines, in the sense that units that would be near the edge of the explosion of a regular Demolition Ship would take more damage if the Demolition Ship was Dutch, since in that case the edge would be further away. The Dutch economic advantage on water comes from the Gibbing technology, which makes Dutch fishing ships slightly more efficient than Japanese ones. However, unlike Japanese, the Dutch first have to build a Castle and research a technology. How good of an UT Gibbing is probably depends on the strength of the Dutch UU. If, on in an hybrid map like Four Lakes, it is viable for the Dutch to go for their UU early, then it is a small step to research Gibbing after they have already invested in a Castle anyway. In addition to giving a boost to their fishing eco, the Gibbing technology gives the allies you trade with using Trade Cogs a little bit of food per amount of gold that you receive. I thought this would be a fun bonus to add, and historically, the Dutch have indeed exported food over naval trade routes, made possible by the conservation technique of gibbing. I think the Dock building bonus is interesting and gives some options for unique strategies, like building forward Docks to harass the opponent. The Dutch cannot build in deep water because otherwise it would be too easy to hide Docks from land units.
- The Barracks discount: I think the Dutch need some bonus for land military and buffing their infantry seems to make the most sense to me. However, this is a bonus I do not have a very strong opinion on.
- The ice bonus: This would probably be the weakest civ bonus in the game because few maps have ice. However, I do like the bonus both from a thematic point of view and because of the fact that it gives some extra reason to pick Dutch on a map like Ghost Lake, where there is little other reason to do so. I donât know how easily the bonus could be implemented, though; I know of no other examples of units changing speed depending on the terrain.
1 Like
Overpowered with full Navy. Try to make a naval battle in scenario editor with Heavy Demolition Rafts.
Barracks Units Costs less food isnât good idea. I can play as Goths. Make it all military units costs like %20 less food except Scout line or Stable Units. Give Dutch stable like Britons but maybe with Castle Age camels.
Terrain bonus a little bit nonsense. Because you want to keep bonus high for situational terrains so donât put that.
Mill bonus(es) was interesting. But it looks like Japanese bonus and imagine some maps like Steppe it is a problem. The biggest problem is Dutch farms famous but Slavs, Teutons and Japanese has bonuses for that.
Inca unique unit, Gothic-Japanese bonuses. We canât find creative bonuses to existing civs. Maybe just trying this to giving this bonuses to existing civilization like Incas and testing for fun good idea. Also you mustnât use +5 food for trade cogs because trip length can be 1 tile and itâs quite strong for Castle Age technology. With Spanish team bonus⊠Make it work %10 faster with just Dutch player.
Imperial Unique Tech is one of the biggest problem. Giving HP to any infantry and archers will remind Vikings and Vietnamese to us. There are some conflicts like Bulgarians and Teutons militia-line. Is no Champion but Two Handed Swordsman with +30 HP good?
It is, however, a better concept than what people actually want Dutch to be, which is just not Medieval at all.
1 Like
Oh yes please I think we need a Dutch civ in-game.
2 Likes
Thank you for your feedback, @IICumanicus.
Whether or not it is OP would depend on the amount to which the blast radius is increased.
But anyway - I donât need to make something in the scenario editor; I play and watch games. Competitively, the Galley and Fire Ship line are used more than the Demolition line. Two civilizations have quite considerate bonuses on these other types of warship: Saracens have 25% faster firing Galleys and Byzantines have 25% faster attacking Fire Ships. Yet, neither is even considered to be a top 5 water civ. I think the Dutch can receive a bonus to their Demolition Ships without it being OP.
True, they would feel somewhat similar to Goths in that respect. It is an interesting idea to make all of their military units cost less food except Stable units. When I was thinking about the Barracks units food discount bonus, I was actually considering to make it âAll military units cost X percent less foodâ, but then not giving Bloodlines to the Dutch so they wonât be another light cav spam civ.
Regarding your Camel suggestion: Having camel troops makes zero sense for a European civilization like the Dutch. It seems we are thinking on different lines. I focus on historical and geographical accuracy.
Do you mean the ice bonus? I donât quite get what you mean. Do you mean the ice bonus, if it exists, should necessarily be high to balance out the fact that few maps have ice? If so, I disagree. I donât mind a bonus being irrelevant on most maps so long as the civ has other bonuses that are useful, and I listed six different bonuses for the Dutch.
Why do you think Dutch farms are famous? Just curious. True, I donât like the similarity with the Japanese in this one. However, it may actually be good for balance if a civilization would rival the Mongols on a map like Steppe. Right now, Mongols are the best civ on Steppe. If the Dutch bonus is as strong as you think, then youâd have two strong Steppe civilizations, which is better because then youâd see more variance on that map. It is similar to how the introduction of Italians was good for Islands games, since previously it would always be a Vikings war. (I donât even know if the Dutch bonus is that strong on Steppe anyway, though.)
How? The similarities between the Goedendag Militia and the Kamayuk are that both are infantry units and both have an anti-cavalry bonus, but Iâd day the comparison stops there. Their stats are wildly different.
Perhaps I worded myself poorly, but the amount of food gained would be proportional to the same thing that determines the amount of gold a Trade Cog brings in (the square of the distance between the two Docks). The Spanish team bonus would not stack with the Dutch UU of Gibbing, since the Spanish team bonus specifically states that âTrade units generate +25% goldâ, not âTrade units work 25% fasterâ. The fact that it is a Castle Age UU makes no difference. In competitive games, trade only becomes relevant in the Imperial Age.
Interesting idea. I would be most satisfied, though, if we would find something in history that we could base the second UU on. But yeah, the Imperial Age UU should probably affect land military, since their Castle Age UU is about water and economy.
1 Like
I mean Heavy Demolition Rafts has high blast radius and blast radius important for suicide units. If you put 0,5 blast radius more, it can be balanced.
I think I was confused. Maybe their Cheese confused me.
My bad. Now I think itâs hybrid of Karambits and Kamayuks so no problem. It is nice unit but I started feel sad for cavalry.
Well, what is the point of Spanish Ally? Or nevermind, balanced game better than a team bonus.
1 Like
Camels arenât native to India and Ceylon.
1 Like
Tibetans and Dutch have the most votes. Now we have Burgundians and Sicilians, who arenât even on the list.
4 Likes
Burgundians can kinda cover the Low Lands too, especially considering their wonder as well as their UU Flemish Militia.
4 Likes
Burgundians are the Dutch. There is not any other way to add the Dutch to a Medieval game.
6 Likes
Beautiful maps by @CheshireWig3203 showing in detail how many more American and African Civilizations that remain to be covered:
I really hope next dlc will cover these under-represented areas.
Link to the original Thread
4 Likes
At least four more Asian civs, including
Tanguts or Tibetans (one or the other)
Nanzhaos, representing Nanzhao/Dali kingdoms as well as the various peoples and tribes that used to inhabit Southern and Southwestern China
Chams, historically they formed a powerful kingdom in what is now southern Vietnam, often fought with Khmers and the Viets
Siamese, the people that overthrew the Khmers
At least one more civ from India, either Tamils or Sinhalese
At least one more civ from Africa, either Kongolese or Swahili
At least one more civ from North America, either Pueblos or Mississippians (Iroquois / Haudesaunee are more suitable for AoE 3âs time period)
At least one more civ from South America, either Chimus or Muiscas (Mapuches are more suitable for AoE 3âs time period)
7 Likes
Georgians of course.
3 Likes
Georgians? Songhai?
Also, any architecture set feels wrong to me if only one civ has it.
1 Like