Portugal: Mercenaries question and some suggestions

Why can Portugal hire Mameluks, and Barbary Corsairs?
If anything they were enemies of a different religion, and it’s very unlikely they would be hired as mercenaries.
I think some mistake was made with “Mameluco” which is a Portuguese word that denotes the first generation child of a European and an Amerindian. It corresponds to the Spanish word mestizo.

Some Indian/Wokou pirates would work much better as Mercenaries could be added instead.

Also i will request again that the Navigator card buffing the Portuguese Explorer gives him a Montante and a matchlock pistol with reduced range.
Sources:

Even with his launch scraping the bottom, Antonio grappled the galley from the stern. At once five Portuguese knights, wearing suits of armour that covered them from head to foot, jumped into her and, wielding their two-handed swords, created havoc all around them. Within minutes the galley was fully cleared of enemies! But by a stroke of ill fortune, just at the point when Antonio de Noronha was about to board the galley an arrow hit him on one of his knees, causing a serious wound that made him fall helpless inside the launch. Concerned only in saving Antonio, the launch’s crew pulled away, leaving the five knights alone in the galley facing hundreds of enemies that pressed them from all sides. Then an epic fight took place in which those five performed prodigies of valour with their two-handed swords, not allowing the Adilkhan’s soldiers to return to the galley. From his vantage point atop a high parapet Adilkhan watched, in amazement, the way in which the Portuguese were fighting and could not restrain himself from praising them.

Mandavi June 1510

Portuguese Sea battle Volume 1.

3 Likes

Yes, Ronin and Elephants as Mercenaries would be much closer to what the Portuguese actually hired.
Eventually, if African civs get added in as everyone wants them too, African mercs would be a great option too.

Barbary Corsairs and Mamelukes makes no sense, since general policy was not to hire muslims for positions of military role, and the Barbary States were historic enemies and rivals of Portugal.

Anyone from the Barbary States would have been shot on sight, really, due to how often they raided Portugal, which created a huge deal of hostility.

5 Likes

As I said in a post on this forum few months ago, I found the design of the portuguese civ really bad with respect to the Portuguese history. However, most people did not agree with me on this.

It’s one of the few civs in the game where its design is not based on its golden age (1415-1579), but rather on the napoleonic period (with cassadores, and above-average musketeer) where Portugal geopolitic role was unimportant. They don’t even have unique card to boost their navy ! (apart from the navigation school).

Don’t expect historical correcteness from this game, there are none. At least, mameluks are on horses this time…

3 Likes

It is still part of Portuguese History, even if not the “Golden Age”, as you would have called it (Portugal’s actual Golden Age was the Barroque Period in the 17th century, after the Age of Discovery, when Portugal was rich due to the exploits of the 15th and 16th century, as it was the richest period in the country’s History, and the most innovative).

What is actually historically inaccurate, is the Mercenaries and the Organ Guns.

Yes sure, it’s still Portuguese history, and I personaly think caçadores are an iconic unit of Portuguese military, so it’s understanding it’s in the game. But imagine bad-■■■ portuguese arquebusier in armor in age2, that would be something.

I’d be reluctant to call the Barroque Period the Golden of Portugal, considering that it’s trade empire was hurted considerably during this period by dutch and english and Portuguese was on the way of decline.

For historical inaccurateness, you can add the fact that many word are actually written in spanish in the game (Cassadores, Jinetes) plus some church unique tech that are actually spanish.

No, it would be too antiquated, and look odd for the later Ages.
We already get Besteiros and Ordinance Besteiros, for the Discovery Age units, aswell as Halberdiers, which was the main melee weapon of the portuguese marine infantryman.

Otherwise Portugal would start to look too much like Spain and Germany, with the Archaic units, and perhaps too similar in gameplay too.

If any civ was to get an armoured Musketeer or Skirmisher, I would rather it would be Spain too, since they actually held on to their cuirassed infantry, for much longer than any other nation in Europe.

Portugal’s overrall design is not bad, and it serves the gameplay purpose, making Ports play differently to other civs.
The only thing I would change, is really the Mercs. Even the Organ Gun, as wrong as it is, does give the civ some uniqueness.

It was the period when the country was the richest and most developed, all the way to the late 18th century.
Portugal only really started to noticeably decline in the end of the 18th century, having a rough but generally stable 19th (besides the Peninsular War) and a chaotic 20th.

The 15th and 16th centuries may have been the height of portuguese battle prowess and expansion, but the 17th was when the country completely detached from anything spanish, and when it developed the most, socially and scientifically.

We never were a warlike people, though we did not shy from combat. To us, a Golden Age is a time of prosperity and peace, not conquest.
An Age of Conquest is what precedes a Golden Age, for us. The Barroque Period was our Golden Age.

Jinetes is indeed in spanish, it should be Ginetes instead.
Cassadores is not spanish, that would be Cazadores. In portuguese it is Caçadores, which the dev team should REALLY change.

Encomienda System makes no sense, it should also be renamed to Fazenda.

3 Likes

Portugal should in fact focus on Gunpowder units.

Melee wise I have said it before a card with 3 to 5 Portuguese Fidalgos, armoured heavy shock infantry with montantes would be historical and personally awesome. Nobility was the leading force of Portugal expansion.

A breach loading swivel gun would be a great replacement for the Organ gun. It’s the same concept as the organ gun but single shot high spread, small and light enough to be mobile.

Better look again who were the auxiliary units in the battle of Alcacer Quibir…

It already does.

There is no need for another Melee unit for ports, we already have Hussars, Pikes and Halbs. A Swordsman unit would ripoff the Spanish or the Germans.

This is unlikely to happen.
Because Ports already get 3 free TCs with Age Ups, they are penalized with a weaker alternative to the Falconet, which the OG is.
At most, I think it would be cool if Ports got Royal Guard Culverins, at double the upgrade cost, but upgraded with an AoE effect. It would be historically accurate too, since Portugal made heavy use of Culverin, as a sort of sniper cannon, specially in the Indies, where kings and generals rode Elephants.

Swivel guns were not mounted outside of a boat.

Mameluks? Barbary Corsairs?
Show me the source please.

1 Like

And that’s were you are wrong buddy.

1 Like

They are representative of the Morocan Allies. Mamelukes are really specific, but its the general idea onlu.

Show me the use of swivel guns outside of the boats (i remember them being used in a fixed position orr in a boat in the siege of malacca and diu).

They were, both on the field, and on fortifications.

" The small size of swivel guns enabled them to be used by a wide variety of vessels, including those too small to accommodate larger cannons, and also permitted their use on land; they were commonly issued to forts in North America in the 18th century, and Lewis and Clark took one with them on their famous expedition into the American interior in 1804."

Mamelukes are Egyptian, and the Barbary States are not Morocco. If they are to be the Moroccan divisions, then why did the devs not change them to the Berber Marksman which shows up in the Historical Battle, and would fit the Ports Gunpowder focus much more?

1 Like

So Morrocan Allies correct, not Corsairs or Mamlukes.

So now they were used on fortifications aswell. Then just not the boat.

Sorry mate I’m going through a few hundred pages to get you the source.

Edit: JonOli already sorted something out.

1 Like

They were also used on field battles, as the articles states.

The issue is that you want to give generic units. Since the game cannot encompass everything. I think it is reasonable to give Portugal those units in representation.

About the swivel guns, i never heard of their use in the field by Portugal - only in fixed positions like i told before - but i can be mistaken.

Several times the naval guns were used in land (and they are more similar to a falconet), so, again, this is a game and must be taken with a grain of salt, i honestly am not that miffed with the Portuguese representation, albeit some terms like the Jinets and Economienda should change.

Well we agree on the first point. It should continue and does.
No discussion there. I did not explain it properly.

Concerning my idea, I do not consider it a rip off, but I think the Navigator at least (since the noble would end up being the leader) could work as a Warchief buffing slightly units around him.
This way it would not rip off germans or spanish, despite me disagreeing on that, to make something unique for Portugal.
Altough I do not consider it would be ripping off anyone. It’s just how Portugal conducted its warfare up to the 17th century.
A single use card would do the trick, but I’m no meta expert.

We agree on the swivel aswell.

I dont want to take away anything.
Mams are very powerfull for a FF build and should be replaced accordingly.

I just saying on an historical perspective.

Perhaps the Portuguese Explorer could become more unique, as a Melee unit with a Montante and Armour, rather than the standard Euro Explorer, but I do not think they need another unit entirely.
If you give Ports a Sword unit, they just become Spanish, but with Halbs and no Lancer.
Assault Infantry with Swords, should remain unique to Spanish and Germans, for gameplay distinction.

I disagree that they should change the Organ Gun for a Swivel Gun, however, even though it would be more accurate. Ogs are not only iconic to AoE3 Ports now, but they also compensate for the better Boom potential.

Yes, just replace them with 4 Disciplined Mahout Lancers, or War Elephants.
It would even be a slight nerf, since they would not benefit from the Age 5 Mercenary Contractor, which is by far the best Age Up option in the game for the Imperial Age.

1 Like