Portuguese Unique Unit rework

With the announcement of the Persian rework, I propose changing the Organ Gun with Aventureiros for Portugal.

Why the change?
Organ gun was a niche weapon that did not see much use, i only found 1 reference so far of it being used at morocco. It lacks the history, depth and impact like the other Portuguese UU the Caravel.
What other UU could the Ports have you ask? And even if you dont I will tell you.
Aventureiros.
Who were they?

Well the King had at his disposal military leadership to serve overseas under direct orders of the crown.
"From the mid-15th century onwards, the lower and middle-ranking leadership of Portuguese expeditions and of the resulting overseas outposts were the fidalgos – gentlemen descended from the old knightly class. The importance of such men was highlighted by Azurara (Gomes Eanes de Zurara) during the second half of the 15th century. His Chronicle of the King Dom João I described the force assembled to attack Ceuta, the most enthusiastic being younger men who ‘ardently desired to acquire the merits of those who had given them life [their fathers], and following their example, to furnish proofs of their courage and loyalty’.

“Success led to a rapid expansion of a class known as the ‘nobility of service’, so that by the 16th century numerous fidalgos from minor and often poor aristocratic families would hang around the royal court, eager for a chance to show their worth. Consequently, the Portuguese government was able to employ large numbers in its armadas and overseas captaincies, their exploits filling the 16th century chronicles and literature.”
Nicolle ill. Embleton Portuguese in the age of Discovery 2012 p13-14

So now that we established that leadership was from Nobility let’s look at their conduct:

Crowley Conquerors 2015 p228
“The military code of the fidalgos valued heroic personal deeds over tactics, the taking of booty and prizes over the achievement of strategic objectives. Men-at-arms were tied by personal and economic loyalties to their aristocratic leaders rather than to an overall commander. Victories were gained by acts of individual valor rather than rational planning. The Portuguese fought with a ferocity that stunned the peoples of the Indian Ocean, but their methods were medieval and chaotic and, not infrequently, suicidal.”
The historian João de Barros summarized its consequences for captains and commanders: ‘that in decisions about whether to fight 
 so that honorable deeds may be done, even if dangerous, they must not raise objections based on the personal safety of their lives.’ Henceforward prudence was impossible. No one felt able to refuse an engagement, however rash, without accusations of cowardice. Only bravery of the most explicit kind would suffice. The honor code of the fidalgos was accentuated to the extent of an emphasis on hand-to-hand combat over the distant destruction of cannon fire."

Crowley 2015 p278 Conquerors (describing fidalgos at Goa, 1512)

“[T]he nobles wished to wield their enormous two-handed swords in heroic single combat, winning booty and polishing their reputations
”

Fidalgos who were nobles, clad head to toe in an expensive full set of armour, always at the top commanding positions, and also formed the veritable “spearhead” of assaults. Most notably, they wielded some scary two-handed swords the Portuguese called montante 10 which in the right hands was capable of cutting an un-armoured person (arguably the most common kind of foe the Portuguese faced in the east) in half, if the chronicles are to be trusted.

And a few examples of those chronicles:
“Pedro Homem put up an admirable fight
”

“He was the last to fall for he wore European plate armour and kept the Chinese at bay with a heavy montante until he was eventually taken down by a cannon shot.”

"Even with his launch scraping the bottom, Antonio grappled the galley from the stern. At once five Portuguese knights, wearing suits of armour that covered them from head to foot, jumped into her and, wielding their two-handed swords, created havoc all around them. Within minutes the galley was fully cleared of enemies!

just at the point when Antonio de Noronha was about to board the galley an arrow hit him on one of his knees, causing a serious wound that made him fall helpless inside the launch. Concerned only in saving Antonio, the launch’s crew pulled away, leaving the five knights alone in the galley facing hundreds of enemies that pressed them from all sides. Then an epic fight took place in which those five performed prodigies of valour with their two-handed swords, not allowing the Adilkhan’s soldiers to return to the galley. From his vantage point atop a high parapet Adilkhan watched, in amazement, the way in which the Portuguese were fighting and could not restrain himself from praising them.
Some launches tried to go in aid of the five isolated knights, but the low water prevented them from doing so. It was then that the boatswain of one of the «naus» who happened to be in one of the launches, had the presence of mind to tell the crew, except for the six oarsmen, to pass to the other launches in order to lighten the one in which he himself was. In so doing he was able to quickly approach the galley’s stern, and collect the knights that were ###### ### except one, named JoĂŁo de Eiras who, in order to cover the retreat of his companions, rushed into the midst of the enemies for never to return."

Portuguese Sea Battles Volume I

The First World Sea Power

1139-1521

Saturnino Monteiro

André de Brito, returning from Siam in a small «nau» with twelve Portuguese, to put in at Phang, to water and get supplies. As always, he was received with great demonstrations of friendship by the Sultan but, as had happened with António de Pina, at daybreak he was suddenly grappled by twenty lancharans and the Malayans started to board the «nau» like ants. Once again there was a desperate struggle in which the Portuguese made wonders with their swords and spears, killing and wounding many enemies. But, such were their numbers, when one fell or retired wounded was immediately replaced by another. And as the conflict wore on the twelve lost their strength and fell one after the other. At last only a brother of André de Brito remained alive, a young man of athletic constitution who, with his heavy two-handed broadsword was able twice, alone, to clean the «nau» of enemies! But finally he, too, was exhausted. To avoid capture he jumped to the water, still wearing his suit of armour, and perished drowned.

Monteiro, Saturnino (1995), Portuguese Sea Battles - Volume II - Christianity, Commerce and Corso 1522-1538, Saturnino Monteiro.

“At last some knights managed to hoist themselves up and into the enemy ships and, with broadsword strokes, made room for the soldiers that came after them. In a few minutes the fight spread through the whole line of «paraus», with the defenders passing from one to other as necessary and being again and again reinforced with soldiers from the stockades.”

“Although having put a brave resistance, the sixteen junks were seized. Once more the Malayans’ poisoned arrows and scimitars were no match for the Portuguese bombards, harquebuses, suits of armour and heavy broadswords.”

“the spears were passed to the slaves and the knights and soldiers received from them the swords and the broadswords. (It is worth remembering that the broadsword was a heavy sword which had to be wielded with the two hands, which prevented the warrior from using a dagger or shield to protect himself. But its strokes were devastating. When used by an athletic swordsman a broadsword could split a man from the head downwards. Therefore they were the preferred weapon of most knights).”

13ea146341816151ccdcf6a507ec94f53f217f00_2_666x1000
######################################################################################################################## qettabgvvqc61
37e936dab41e36b1af4b5b3f0a761f40

Obviously this would be a Castle/Imperial Ahe Unit recruited from the Castle, as most of them were nobility (Fidalgos) it would be fitting.

Fun fact: One of the Montante treaties in HEMA used these days is from Diogo Gomes de Figueiredo an Aventureiro (in his early liffe) in the 17th century.

5 Likes

That is right. The Organ cannon is completely out of place for the Portuguese. The first use of it was in the “Hundred Years War” between England and France in 1339. King Edward the Third was the first who use it for his English troops.

2 Likes

I love how the only reason the Portuguese get the Organ Gun as unique unit is because they had it as unique unit in Age of Empires 3 which, in turn, only had them because they scrapped the Italian civ before release in 2005 and they wanted to put the unit somewhere.

6 Likes

Is there any evidence for Organ Gun being planned for Italians? I haven’t yet seen this mentioned.

It seems possible that the Organ Gun was given to Portuguese from before scrapping Italians, because they had trouble finding UUs for them.

None of the Persian rework was done exclusively for historical accuracy. The civ was slow and hard to use on land maps and that’s the main reason why they are getting buffed. Portuguese on the other hand are already quite strong, organ guns are good, usable but no longer broken units. So I don’t see the necessity of a rework.

2 Likes

Nothing like a bit of research.
Imagine giving Samurais to Korea, people would be up in arms. Unfortunately for Portugal it does not have that pop culture following, so most people dont know or dont care. But it does not make it right does it? So since now reworks are a thing it is a fantastic oportunity to make a change, especially for those that care about the bare minimum about history on a history inspired game. Or else why not have a dragon for Portuguese UU.

So quoting the devs lets represent portuguese rich history.

Thanks for droping by.
Adeus.

Woad raiders of celts are quite out of place too being an iron age thing. I rly rly, doubt devs will change the ports uu, even if it would make alot more sense historically. Ports getting a aquebusier upgrade to hand cannons would have been better. Maybe getting genitoir for all of iberians. But I think hoping for a uu change is coping.

3 Likes

I remember last week someone suggested Organ Gun should be a regional unit for the Britons, Franks, and Burgundians

But I wonder how should they redesign it, as it overlaps with Scorpion as an anit-unit siege

They either make it the second “Elephant Archer” which was once a UU but became a regional unit, or remain as UU and Portuguese got a unique upgrade just like the new Persian

2 Likes

The difference is that the Celts are one of the original Ensemble civs in the game and, naturally, people are a lot more reluctant when it comes to changes to the civ. Portuguese do not run into this issue, since they were released with the African Kingdoms. So if the Indians can end up with their Unique Unit becoming a Regional Unit, why can’t the Organ Gun?

2 Likes

Cheers for the feedback.

Makes sense.

A sensible sugestion.

1 Like

@VicKestrel Thanks for the read.

But when it comes to this “Aventureiro” unique unit how are they going to behave as a unit in-game? You didn’t provide an explanation about that in your post.

Are they going to be melee infantry units that deals AOE damage when they swing their montante sword or did you have something else in mind?

1 Like

How does it overlap? One deals Pierce-through damage in a straight line from a distance, the other deals splash damage at point of impact from short range. They each have different uses and different effective strategies that go into their usage.

3 Likes

You seem to have a further point to your question, but maybe im just reading to much into it.

I did not provide one simply because i didnt think of it.

Edit:
To keep in with the gunpoweder theme:

So it’s less of a rework and more of an essay on a proposed unit’s background?

1 Like

Introduce a unit using a swivel gun as the new UU.
It would look like Cannoneer in Aoe3, firing projectiles with a swivel gun. The projectile could have a blust radius so it could hurt multiple units just like the Organ Gun, which allows it used like the Organ Gun so the style of gameplay of the civ could be remained.

1 Like

By showing this page with the highlighted text are you then suggesting that the “Aventureiro” unit is going to have the special ability where they throw these “panelas de pólvora” (fire pots) at enemy units, which will cause AOE damage or DOT damage?

1 Like

Since you mentioned i have been thinking about how to make it a proper unique unit.

Considering the sources, and im no expert by all means on all the bonus in the game, i would replace the 2 handed swordsmans and champion with aventureiro and elite aventureiro.

Now looking at the sources you could give an pierce armour defense (as ports lack squire) and bonus vs light armoured units and splash damage, some conversion resistance. Not all at the same time obviously. Just throwing ideas out there.

A short range aoe attack with a DoT could also be something to make it unique.

Agains just a 5 minute brainstorm idea.

1 Like

A very short essay if anything. Just trying to promote discussion.

Some players a bit more enthusiastic about the historical side of the game would like to see the organ gun replaced.

Someone proposed the swivel gun, again a great sugestion.

I provided info on something thay could potentially be used for a replacment, and at the same time exposing the modus operandi of the Portuguese nobility at that time.

One book author actually called the Portuguese war in the indian ocean the last crusade. ( ill remeber his name)

You’re right, actually, I don’t really have a strong opinion about it, just a feeling. Or maybe I just want to spark the discussion. Because not even the guy who suggested it in the first place discussed the balance enough.

When Elephant Archer became the regional unit, the devs nerfed them (makes sense) except now they have faster speed. Pretty sure the devs will nerf Organ Gun too if that’s the case.

And it will require Imperial Age and Chemistry because of gunpowder. So a late-game heavy anit-unit siege? that might do, but again I don’t really have a strong opinion about it.

so organ gun and elite organ guns would replace scorpions and heavy scorpions for franks, brits, italians (cheaper but no siege engineers), burgundians (extra dmg), bohemians (faster movement), portuguese (cheaper gold cost and baliistic), spanish (faster attack), teutons (extra meele armor) and koreans (cheaper wood cost, maybe also +1 range from UT added).

from wikipedia about organ guns:
" The first known ribauldequin was used by the army of Edward III of England in 1339 in France during the Hundred Years’ War. Edward’s ribauldequins had twelve barrels which fired salvoes of twelve balls. Nine-barreled ribaults were used by Milan and other participants in the Italian Wars.[4] Ribauldequins were also used in the Wars of the Roses. During the Second Battle of St Albans, Burgundian soldiers under Yorkist control utilized the weapon against the Lancastrian Army led by Queen Margaret of Anjou.[5] King Louis XII of France is believed to have possessed an organ gun with 50 barrels, all of which fired at once. The Count of Oliveto used organ guns against the French at the Battle of Ravenna, on 11 April 1512,[6] and in Eastern Europe such guns were commonplace into the 17th century.[7]"

it could work, not all have to get the elite upgrade either, since not all have heavy scorpions too.

one could even argue to add it to koreans
" The hwacha or hwach’a (Korean: 화찚; Hanja: 火車; lit. fire cart[1]) was a multiple rocket launcher and an organ gun of similar design which were developed in fifteenth century Korea. The former variant fired one or two hundred rocket-powered arrows[2][3] while the latter fired several dozen iron-headed arrows or bolts out of gun barrels."

it would acutally make alot of sense to be honest. gunpower is unrepresentent in age of empires 2 imperial age from 1350 onwards. but the original age of kings wasnt rly focuses about that timeframe

here is another internet website (not ry good source but whatever)
" Whilst the general design appears to have originated in modern-day Belgium and France, the ribaldequin was also used in Germany, including during the Hussite Wars (1419–1434). An illustration showing a 6-barrelled example which appears to be configured for indirect fire is illustrated in Hans Talhoffer’s Alte Armatur und Ringkunst of 1459*,* in a folio reproducing Konrad Kyeser’s Bellifortis (‘War Fortifications’) (1402–1405; see Figure 1.2). In England, the earliest known Exchequer reference dates to 1430, noting the receipt of fourteen such guns from France. Organ guns were regularly used in campaigns thereafter, and saw service during the Wars of the Roses—notably by Yorkists under the leadership of Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick, who employed the weapon against the Lancastrians during the Second Battle of St. Albans (17 February 1461)."

lasty in that article they claim in easter europe specially russia the organ gun was used from 1550 onwards, which means we can safely cut all of eastern europe from organ guns, they got it too late for age of empires 2 timeframe and only westrern euope used it before 1500.

" The use of multi-barrelled artillery guns also spread to Eastern Europe, and local designs and developments were introduced. In Russia, such guns were known as a ŃĐŸŃ€ĐŸĐșĐ° (soroka; or ‘magpie’) or ĐŸŃ€ĐłĐ°ĐœŃ‹ (organy; ‘organ’) and were adopted from the second half of the 16th century onwards."

The unit would be locked behind chemistry expect for brits and franks being able to build them in castle age and without chemsitry. all others need imperial age first, then chemistry, and then some get the elite upgrade too.

4 Likes