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Its okay i can grow to accept loss of paladin
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Unsure how to feel about it. Too similar to teuton champions even though teuton bonus would be 2 melee armour weaker and also have it applied to halb where as Bulgaria is strictly militia line.
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Yea exactly
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Many civs aren’t exactly listed as their civ states them to be. Viking and Japanese are for example infantry civs but have perfect arbalests. Magyars are a cavalry civ but get access to FU arbs as well. Bulgarians getting better CA just makes them have more options. The original Bulgarian had hand cannoneers before it was removed so giving them another use out of their range seems fine. They get Parthian Tactics at least.
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They don’t need crossbowmen I feel. Could help yes. But if that’s not an option then the CA change is an alternate option. You can’t just give a civ CA with Parthian Tactics and no final armour zero bonuses. Better off giving final armour or a bonus. And lowered frame delay is a better bonus than none
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Except that its not. Slavs have a direct siege discount bonus. Bulgarians get it on their techs. You could essentially say Burmese Monks and Portuguese are the same going by your logic. One has 20% cheaper monks (thanks to its civ bonus) and the other has 50% cheaper monk techs. Another comparison would be Italian’s and Vikings. Cheaper warship for Vikings and cheaper dock tech for Italians. How is that any different to Bulgarians getting a tech discount and Slavs getting a siege unit discount?
Better than turk early castle age yes. I agree.
Tatars get free thumb ring. Very critical tech for CA. Lower frame delay doesn’t matter if they miss half their shots. So until thumb ring is done. Bulgarians is behind tatar intially.
Even Huns and Mongol CA are ahead of them.
Monks are used alot in many games. Water is not niche in my eyes. If its in the map pool in the form of hybrid or pure water. It’s beyond niche. If strictly arabia I agree. But they are strong bonuses regardless and kick in from castle age. This bonus kicks in imp.
Getting fast bokdin fletching and fast armour upgrades can change engagements. Any boost is a good boost.
Not necessary. Konniks are fine as they are. They are not something I want to change or want to address.
But it could gives to dismounted Konniks a better role as killing halbs, and even would be funny to make flee them, anyway a castle is a must and a huge amount of resources.
What is ironic is that the stats you linked show 29% an increase in play rate, so they are being played more.
Maybe because I hold CA’s frame delay as a major weakness than anything else
Monks and water is definitely more niche than halb ram strategy. SO is a staple on closed maps
I didn’t say the blacksmith bonus is weaker than uni, quite the opposite. As a TB, its quite a boost than the Malian one
Guys, I do not get one point. What are the needs of the civ? I see too many opinions.
I mean, do they need a late game boost? A feudal boost? A siege boost? A boost to their krepost like free mining upgrades?
Perhaps making their TC cost even less or no stone could be useful to jumpstart their first Kreppost.
Their early Castle Age units are pretty limited. The free long swordsman upgrade is kind of useless as you can make Konniks which are pretty much like a knight + a free longswordsmen.
Archer do not make much sense as you can not transition into Xbows.
So Kreppost + Konniks are the only great option they have. Either as defensive Kreppost + 3TC boom at home or as Kreppost + Siege Rush forwards.
I think they are a little underrated and now with the better pathfinding the Kreppost Konnik play is quite good.
However, once people start noticing that Bulgarians only have one good strat they will adapt and counter it…
I don’t see the need for another buff, yes they lost the paladins but in castle age they have the strongest knights and cavaliers then.
Also krepost+konniks is always a strong combinations, and the fact that they have an almost FU upgraded SW gives them a lot of powerful options.
If you really want to give them a bonus just you can make so that the blacksmith bonus is increased with the ages, like:
- feudal age - 50% faster
- castle age - 65% faster
- imperial age - 80% faster
Better melee pathing definitely makes Bulgaria more viable but i agree Bulgarians need an eco boost, but i think the 50% SW tech is way too much of a food boost. 900 food just on the rams. Nevermind the gold discounts on the scorp and onager. So if anything a smaller boost.
I agree the current blacksmith one is pants. But 80% for the whole team might be too much.
The meta is eco. All these guys giving various examples of why Bulgaria is fine are not considering the s tier civs and why they’re there.
As an example : bloody Frank’s have amazing paladins AND 4 RELEVANT eco bonuses(5 if we consider the UT reducing number of stables needed) … and AND has big holes in their tech tree, poor xbows, poor CA, poor SW. Maya, celts, vikings, aztecs and Britons have big holes in their tech trees but amazing ecos and buffs. But they’re still dominating… So “wide tech trees” aren’t reasons for a civ to be top tier…
There are two glaring weaknesses in the Bulgarians, first their vulnerability to archers and lack of decent archery units themselves, second having arguably the worst eco-bonus in the game.
Being so reliant on siege makes a buff in this area appropriate, a discount to siege tech is a good suggestion as it works to remedy both issues.
I really like the idea with the cheaper Siege Workshop Techs. I read about this a couple of months ago on Steam and became a fan of it instantly.
But I feel like 50% cheaper is a lot though considering that Italians with their cheap dock techs are seen as (one of) the best water civs. Now thinking of that with the Bulgarians: super strong Siege in the late game combined with Konniks that now have good pathing… I feel like this might be a little too much, but certainly a step into the right direction 
Also I feel like the idea with the cheaper Blacksmith could be a nice one for sure.
This would buff even more their strong konniks, since the only thing that keeps them a bit behind it’s their needs of more blacksmith bonus (9 instead of the usual 6).
DoctBaghi
This would buff even more their strong konniks, since the only thing that keeps them a bit behind it’s their needs of more blacksmith bonus (9 instead of the usual 6).
You’re right, I agree with that. But imo this would rather boost their early game than their late game because you will build a blacksmith (most likely) in Feudal Age either way. So this bonus should usually come in before you have your first Konnik on the field and in my eyes their Men-at-Arms or Scouts would benefit more of that than the Konnik, even if it needs a lot of upgrades later on.
The main problem is that they would save a lot by grabbing all the upgrades needed for konniks, that’s the problem.
Even if they have a pretty standard feudal and early castle age, their late castle and imp are pretty strong.
This bonus would make their konniks rush even more strong.
Great Idea I would DEFINETLY have this effect added for Bagains
DoctBaghi
The main problem is that they would save a lot by grabbing all the upgrades needed for konniks, that’s the problem.
But it’s only the Blacksmith that would cost -50W, not the technologies. As far as I understood the meaning of this buff the cost for the Blacksmith upgrades would stay the same.
Well… is but it acts in imp only. Very strong but very late. What about cheap siege Workshop? The building I mean. Say 100w. This would be a buff in early castle age.
Ahh ok, I’m sorry I understood that you meant all blacksmith techs cheaper, my bad.
No problem 